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Training Makes Runners More Efficient, but Not Cyclists (2018)

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Re: Training Makes Runners More Efficient, but Not Cyclists (2018)

#51

Post by mrcartmenez »

ben7799 wrote: post #31

I'm a cyclist.. while I can agree that this study could be flawed there's also something else. Bicycles are highly efficient themselves.. perhaps so efficient that they hide too many cues that riders would use to become more efficient. And while the study might be flawed by using trainers and such if you try to study stuff in the real world with cyclists there's probably too much noise in the signals with all the str…

True. The main way a cyclist becomes more efficient is holding a more aerodynamic position for longer. Which you can’t measure on an exercise bike indoors

Re: Training Makes Runners More Efficient, but Not Cyclists (2018)

#53

Post by pdemporg »

Tarrosion wrote: post #40
dkarl wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's interesting because there is a widespread belief (questioned by many, but also still held by many) that pedal stroke at a fixed cadence can be made more efficient by directing the force in more of a circle instead of just pushing down on each side as a beginner does. As you direct the force in a more circular manner, you are supposed to get more efficient. Being clipped in is supposed to allow you to complete th…

Ah I've often wondered about this when riding! I wear grippy shoes on spiky pedals, but not clipped in (or using a poorly-named clipless system). Alternating left-right pushes feels very different than trying to maintain a continuous circular motion with quasi-equal force throughout. But unscientifically I can't notice any difference.

'Clipless' pedals are so called because the system that preceded them was composed of toe clips and straps. Remove the clips and replace with ski bindings, and voila - clipless pedals!

Re: Training Makes Runners More Efficient, but Not Cyclists (2018)

#54

Post by nradov »

mrcartmenez wrote: post #50
nradov wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What sort of evidence is needed? Modern power meters can show the complete power phase and torque effectiveness on pedaling strokes. Regardless of efficiency, modern clipless pedals allow for delivering higher maximum power without your feet slipping off.

Only in a bunch sprint. Otherwise there is no benefit and a lot of downsides in terms of how likely you are to get injured by poor cleat placement or saddle position.

No there are other situations beyond a bunch sprint where you need to briefly put out more power than flat pedals safely allow.

Re: Training Makes Runners More Efficient, but Not Cyclists (2018)

#55

Post by DenisM »

nradov wrote: post #47
DenisM wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I often observe that I am he slowest climber on the mountain, but I do not think I am the least fit. There's a good chance it's the technique.

There's not a huge amount of technique to climbing, it's mostly power to weight ratio. Do you have a power meter and have you done an FTP test? One technique you can practice is calibrating your effort level in terms of watts or heart rate to the length of the climb. You need to get a feel for the maximum output you can sustain without getting gassed before you reach the summit.

I don’t have a power meter, but for the purpose of pacing I might get away with just the hr? I’ve always been bad with pacing myself, so that looks to be the lowest hanging fruit.

Re: Training Makes Runners More Efficient, but Not Cyclists (2018)

#56

Post by DenisM »

exabrial wrote: post #46
DenisM wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How did you train for all that? I feel like I waste a lot of energy on climbs, but I can't quite figure out why. Could use some help.

For road biking I can't provide much advice, but I'm sure Dylan Johnson does. He has a great YouTube channel and he does nothing but quote whitepapers and studies. For XCO, one must learn to load/unload wheels as they go over obstacles. The more you practice this, the more efficient you get at it; so rather than just plowing through obstacles with the gas pedal floored, figure out how to traverse rocks and roots usin…

Thanks, this is helpful!

Re: Training Makes Runners More Efficient, but Not Cyclists (2018)

#57

Post by exabrial »

DenisM wrote: post #55
nradov wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's not a huge amount of technique to climbing, it's mostly power to weight ratio. Do you have a power meter and have you done an FTP test? One technique you can practice is calibrating your effort level in terms of watts or heart rate to the length of the climb. You need to get a feel for the maximum output you can sustain without getting gassed before you reach the summit.

I don’t have a power meter, but for the purpose of pacing I might get away with just the hr? I’ve always been bad with pacing myself, so that looks to be the lowest hanging fruit.

Yep, HR can tell you a lot (power meters are pricey, but indeed are the best option). If your HR rises too quick you're likely off pace however though.

Another thing you can do is thinking of saving some gas in the tank for the last bit of the climb where you'll sprint as you summit. Start with this in mind at the bottom

Re: Training Makes Runners More Efficient, but Not Cyclists (2018)

#58

Post by nradov »

DenisM wrote: post #55
nradov wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's not a huge amount of technique to climbing, it's mostly power to weight ratio. Do you have a power meter and have you done an FTP test? One technique you can practice is calibrating your effort level in terms of watts or heart rate to the length of the climb. You need to get a feel for the maximum output you can sustain without getting gassed before you reach the summit.

I don’t have a power meter, but for the purpose of pacing I might get away with just the hr? I’ve always been bad with pacing myself, so that looks to be the lowest hanging fruit.

If you have the means and are serious about improving then I highly recommend buying a power meter. I have Favero Assioma pedals which are about the cheapest option for dual sided power and work well. After I've been riding for a while I tend to slack off and fool myself into thinking that I'm working harder than I really am. The power meter keeps me honest.

But without a power meter you can certainly pace yourself by heart rate. Figure out your heart rate zones and then do some test rides holding your heart rate steady in a particular zone and sustain the effort as long as you can. Then you can estimate a maximum target heart rate for each climb segment based on how much time it should take.

You can also experiment with different pedaling cadences. Every cyclist has a different optimal cadence, but in general you want to shift down when climbing and keep the cadence high (unless you're intentionally doing a low cadence strength workout).

Re: Training Makes Runners More Efficient, but Not Cyclists (2018)

#59

Post by dahart »

DenisM wrote: post #42
nradov wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think you waste a lot of energy on climbs? For most riders, climbing speed is based on your power to weight ratio. So the easiest way to waste less energy is simply to reduce body fat.

I often observe that I am he slowest climber on the mountain, but I do not think I am the least fit. There's a good chance it's the technique.

FWIW, best climbing seasons I've ever had were:

- Once early in the season I tried letting a very fit fixie rider pace me up a canyon road until we literally couldn't pedal anymore due to leg muscle exhaustion. The fixie part is important because I had to stay in a much higher gear than I would have otherwise, and stand up and fight just to stay with him on the steep sections. We both collapsed and were near puking, and it took about ~15 mins of rest before we could ride down. Next day, before my legs had a chance to get sore, I did another regular climb. The rest of the season, I was unusually and noticeably faster than my friends. The workout where I pushed to exhaustion gave me a boost I didn't expect.

- Last couple of years I've worked up up to some longer rides, gone out for few super long rides on my own (50-100 miles). Having to work up the endurance to get through multiple big climbs in a ride, I've noticed, really helps me hold my own when I'm back riding shorter climbs with friends.

Generally just riding a lot will help too, technique comes with practice. Good luck!

Re: Training Makes Runners More Efficient, but Not Cyclists (2018)

#60

Post by rct42 »

orthopodvt wrote: post #16

The study conditions are so artificial (very slow), that any potential efficiencies would likely be negligible. My son, who ran track in college used to tell me that it was harder to run at a 7 minute mile pace than 6 minute mile pace, because they were doing all their training to run at sub-5 pace. My experience on the bike is similar. AS for the author's comment about how easy the neuromuscular coordination to bike…

I would guess they evaluated it at 8 min/mile pace because a more typical speed for evaluating running economy (e.g, 16 km/h or ~6:00 pace) might be a bit tough for cyclists who don't run. Especially since you'd need to do 5 minutes or more at said pace to make a meaningful determination of RE.
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