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Training Makes Runners More Efficient, but Not Cyclists (2018)

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Re: Training Makes Runners More Efficient, but Not Cyclists (2018)

#41

Post by mrob »

putnambr wrote: post #33
dkarl wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's interesting because there is a widespread belief (questioned by many, but also still held by many) that pedal stroke at a fixed cadence can be made more efficient by directing the force in more of a circle instead of just pushing down on each side as a beginner does. As you direct the force in a more circular manner, you are supposed to get more efficient. Being clipped in is supposed to allow you to complete th…

Like you said there are questions of efficiency, but hardly any questions of effectiveness. By clipping in and being able to muscle around the full rotation might burn more calories, but it does allow you to push out more watts. Try climbing a 10%+ incline clipped in vs flats. You might be more tired at the top of the hill clipped in, but with flats you'll likely spin out and be forced to hike your bike. Regarding th…

>Try climbing a 10%+ incline clipped in vs flats. You might be more tired at the top of the hill clipped in, but with flats you'll likely spin out and be forced to hike your bike.

Doesn't "spinning out" mean your power output is bottlenecked because you can't move your legs fast enough? It only happens when your gear is too low. I don't see how that's possible while climbing, regardless of what pedals you use. I ride with flats, and there's a 10% incline hill not far from where I live. I've climbed it several times (at about walking pace) and never had any problem.

Re: Training Makes Runners More Efficient, but Not Cyclists (2018)

#42

Post by DenisM »

nradov wrote: post #39
DenisM wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How did you train for all that? I feel like I waste a lot of energy on climbs, but I can't quite figure out why. Could use some help.

Why do you think you waste a lot of energy on climbs? For most riders, climbing speed is based on your power to weight ratio. So the easiest way to waste less energy is simply to reduce body fat.

I often observe that I am he slowest climber on the mountain, but I do not think I am the least fit. There's a good chance it's the technique.

Re: Training Makes Runners More Efficient, but Not Cyclists (2018)

#43

Post by karmakaze »

I don't see any importance in the conclusion. Certainly training improves technique which improves efficiency in real world situations.

I took up cycling as a personal passtime going for a number of hours at a time. I signed up for a fundraiser for a distance I didn't know I could complete. I asked a cyclist friend to spend a day with me to prep. One thing I sucked at was hills. He noticed what I was doing and said you can't downshift your way out of it, it's better to stick with a gear and power through it even if it mostly burns you out. Getting winded and moving slowly expending too much energy just to keep your balance isn't better. That was immensely better and there are likely so many other things that could be better tuned for efficiency.

Re: Training Makes Runners More Efficient, but Not Cyclists (2018)

#44

Post by mft_ »

DenisM wrote: post #32
jsperson wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A few years ago I took an XC clinic from a pro woman mountain biker. A big focus was on descending. On one particular hill she got down first - MINUTES ahead of me (the first student). This was on a descent where there was basically no pedaling. She did this to us all day. During that season I won a local mens cat 2 race series. I was no slouch, but she destroyed us. All technique.

Did you hear about the guy who won a downhill race after losing his chain out of the gate? Mountain biking is a lot closer to mountain skiing than it is to race biking - very little locomotion, a whole lot of body balancing. https://www.bicycling.com/racing/a20022483/video-aaron-gwin-...

One anecdote. Most DH races involve a lot of hard pedalling.

Re: Training Makes Runners More Efficient, but Not Cyclists (2018)

#45

Post by johnold »

MrFantastic wrote: post #19
helge9210 wrote: post #11

The relevant part of the article: > When I pressed Kram and Swinnen for their preferred explanations, they pointed out that efficient runners use their stretchy tendons and ligaments to store elastic energy to be “recycled” from stride to stride. The push and pull between tendon and muscle is so finely tuned that your muscles stay roughly the same length throughout the stride instead of shortening and lengthening wit…

You can spot inefficient runners once you know what to look for. Efficient runners are striding 20 or 30% faster. Usually over 180 strides/minute. If you look at the efficient runners head looks like it's floating smoothly. If you are bouncing you are losing energy.

This reminded me of watching some Kenyan runners at a local race. I had never seen people that good run in person.

I swear they just floated by... Their heads and shoulders just don't look like the move up and down at all. I'll never forget it. A thing of beauty.

Re: Training Makes Runners More Efficient, but Not Cyclists (2018)

#46

Post by exabrial »

DenisM wrote: post #34
exabrial wrote: post #4

> Training Makes Runners More Efficient, but Not Cyclists I could see this being true for road bikers... but any XCO, CXO, or Enduro rider depends heavily on training for: * Finding efficient body position for climbing * Weight shifting/wheel unloading while crossing features * Discovery efficiency gains in pedal cadence for terrain, slope, camber I did a cross country race last July. I started mountain biking in Mar…

How did you train for all that? I feel like I waste a lot of energy on climbs, but I can't quite figure out why. Could use some help.

For road biking I can't provide much advice, but I'm sure Dylan Johnson does. He has a great YouTube channel and he does nothing but quote whitepapers and studies.

For XCO, one must learn to load/unload wheels as they go over obstacles. The more you practice this, the more efficient you get at it; so rather than just plowing through obstacles with the gas pedal floored, figure out how to traverse rocks and roots using weight shifting only. Learning to manual on flat ground with the seat post all the way down can probably teach you a ton about weight shifting.

Another big gain for me is learning how to judge how difficult a climb is and keeping a very steady pace up the climb. It takes practice, but the steadier your pace[power output] is, the more efficient it will be.

If you're not shifting constantly, you're not doing things correctly :) You should be shifting before you hit your climb and should time when you need to put power down with your shifts so you don't have to shift under load.

An oval chainring can help prevent pedal stalls at the top of stroke (I use the OneUp Components Cinch 32T) on both climbs and rock gardens.

Make sure your bike fits your body as we're all built pretty differently. Literally learn everything about stack height, seat tube angle, bar rise, head tube angle, reach, bottom bracket height, wheel base, chainstay length, etc. There's important pedaling dynamics like anti-squat that are affected by everything in that list :)

And of course, training, weight loss, etc as you probably already know.

Re: Training Makes Runners More Efficient, but Not Cyclists (2018)

#47

Post by nradov »

DenisM wrote: post #42
nradov wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think you waste a lot of energy on climbs? For most riders, climbing speed is based on your power to weight ratio. So the easiest way to waste less energy is simply to reduce body fat.

I often observe that I am he slowest climber on the mountain, but I do not think I am the least fit. There's a good chance it's the technique.

There's not a huge amount of technique to climbing, it's mostly power to weight ratio. Do you have a power meter and have you done an FTP test?

One technique you can practice is calibrating your effort level in terms of watts or heart rate to the length of the climb. You need to get a feel for the maximum output you can sustain without getting gassed before you reach the summit.

Re: Training Makes Runners More Efficient, but Not Cyclists (2018)

#48

Post by mrcartmenez »

dkarl wrote: post #29
theptip wrote: post #7

> A caveat: The cycling in the new study was performed on stationary bikes at a predetermined cadence. It’s possible that the benefits of experience and bike-specific training would be more noticeable on the open road at a freely chosen cadence. A pretty big caveat. I’m not surprised that cycling on a stationary bike at a fixed cadence has very little room for skill/technique improvements. This invalidates the result…

It's interesting because there is a widespread belief (questioned by many, but also still held by many) that pedal stroke at a fixed cadence can be made more efficient by directing the force in more of a circle instead of just pushing down on each side as a beginner does. As you direct the force in a more circular manner, you are supposed to get more efficient. Being clipped in is supposed to allow you to complete th…

This is unfortunately a disproven theory.

The evidence to the contrary came in the form of power-meter data from pro cyclists. It shows that professional cyclists instead use their power only in the down stroke of the peddle and have a far less “even” power through the cycle. Their technique is much more similar to a piston engine than a rotary.

Re: Training Makes Runners More Efficient, but Not Cyclists (2018)

#49

Post by mrcartmenez »

Tarrosion wrote: post #40
dkarl wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's interesting because there is a widespread belief (questioned by many, but also still held by many) that pedal stroke at a fixed cadence can be made more efficient by directing the force in more of a circle instead of just pushing down on each side as a beginner does. As you direct the force in a more circular manner, you are supposed to get more efficient. Being clipped in is supposed to allow you to complete th…

Ah I've often wondered about this when riding! I wear grippy shoes on spiky pedals, but not clipped in (or using a poorly-named clipless system). Alternating left-right pushes feels very different than trying to maintain a continuous circular motion with quasi-equal force throughout. But unscientifically I can't notice any difference.

Clip ins (“Clipless”) aren’t any more efficient than flats, but will allow a little more power in a sprint.

Clipping in is mostly a cargo-cult among non-pro riders

Re: Training Makes Runners More Efficient, but Not Cyclists (2018)

#50

Post by mrcartmenez »

nradov wrote: post #35
dkarl wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's interesting because there is a widespread belief (questioned by many, but also still held by many) that pedal stroke at a fixed cadence can be made more efficient by directing the force in more of a circle instead of just pushing down on each side as a beginner does. As you direct the force in a more circular manner, you are supposed to get more efficient. Being clipped in is supposed to allow you to complete th…

What sort of evidence is needed? Modern power meters can show the complete power phase and torque effectiveness on pedaling strokes. Regardless of efficiency, modern clipless pedals allow for delivering higher maximum power without your feet slipping off.

Only in a bunch sprint.

Otherwise there is no benefit and a lot of downsides in terms of how likely you are to get injured by poor cleat placement or saddle position.

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