Uighurs: 'Credible case' China carrying out genocide • Hacker News Board

Re: Uighurs: 'Credible case' China carrying out genocide

#91

Post by newacct583 » Mon, Feb 22, 2021, 4:44 AM UTC

tourist_ wrote: post #75

newacct583 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The... single greatest? Not the great empire builders? Not the USSR? Modern China, really? Not even, y'know, the ancient chinese empires who subjugated most of asia? The PRC? I mean, just objectively modern chinese citizens, while they certainly don't live under western-level protection for expression, are (owing just to technology and nothing less) vastly more able to share their opinions widely and securely than...…

"... vastly more able to share their opinions widely and securely than..." CORRECTION - They are able to share their "approved" opinions.

No, they're able to share their opinions opinions. I have chinese coworkers who will, given the opportunity, bitch about their government the same way we do. No, they aren't going to put it in email. They aren't going to use WeChat to do it. But they can absolutely do it. I've seen them do it when they're in the US for meetings. I've seen them do it over dinner at public restaurants in China.

They simply are more "free", by any reasonable standard, than their grandparents in the PRC or their compatriots behind the iron curtain. Quite frankly they're more free to express inconvienent opinions than most minorities were in the US for most of the 20th century.

The PRC government does some awful things. But the kind of hyperbolic nonsense we're engaging in here isn't helping the situation.

Re: Uighurs: 'Credible case' China carrying out genocide

#92

Post by jedmeyers » Mon, Feb 22, 2021, 4:44 AM UTC

eyelidlessness wrote: post #76

offby37years wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Private websites" are the contemporary public square, especially so when half the world is locked at home and forced to communicate remotely.

Okay so what’s the “free speech” principle that demands sending in the government to force those websites to publish against their will?

> force those websites to publish against their will?

I would argue that the will of the websites is to actually allow publishing for the most amount of people. And they censor the opposing political views only because the government-aligned forces make them to. Basically if every corporation needs the government to survive they are going to do everything the government wants, even if they don’t admit to it. They would rather lose half the users than become completely defunct.

Re: Uighurs: 'Credible case' China carrying out genocide

#93

Post by steve76 » Mon, Feb 22, 2021, 4:45 AM UTC

refurb wrote: post #55

almost_usual wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are comments on HN right now where people are questioning whether freedom of speech is good in the US by US citizens. Why would someone from China think it’s working after the shit show of 2020 and our own citizens not having confidence?

Yup. Currently live in Asia and many of the less-than-democratic countries are pointing to the US media coverage and saying "see! freedom of speech is dangerous, even the Americans agree. when we restrict your speech we're just trying to keep you safe."

Law goes back to the code of Hammurabi, the start of civilization itself. The sole purpose is to limit the violence and not add to it. If there's anything arbitrary, it's the violence. The Magna Carta showed everyone is restrained by laws, or else there are no laws. We're back to being beasts again living in terror, squandering humanity's elevated position gifted to us, won long ago.

You can misspeak. Therefore, it's impossible for you to tell others what is perfect speech. That's all the Bill of Rights and freedom of speech is. It's unavoidable.

The best lessen enemies in times of contention, not create them. The USA took the gift of the New World and said if we're going to tell other people what to do, what's the minimum we have to do? We don't need to crush riots or deprogram people. Hundreds of cities burnt down in the USA due really dirty political tricks, and we left it alone. If people want to lead in the USA, they have to find a way themselves to overcome it without relying on tyranny, oligarchy or anarchy.

Re: Uighurs: 'Credible case' China carrying out genocide

#94

Post by newacct583 » Mon, Feb 22, 2021, 4:46 AM UTC

meowface wrote: post #88

refenestrator wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thucydides_Trap

>The Thucydides Trap, also referred to as Thucydides's Trap, is a term popularized by American political scientist Graham T. Allison to describe an apparent tendency towards war when an emerging power threatens to displace an existing great power as the international hegemon. It was coined and is primarily used to describe a potential conflict between the United States and the People's Republic of China. One shouldn'…

Yes, but I think the point was that the rhetoric above, about a nation that was "single greatest threat to freedom, and human rights this world has ever seen", absolutely sounds like it's written by someone who very much does want to go to war with China.

Re: Uighurs: 'Credible case' China carrying out genocide

#95

Post by newacct583 » Mon, Feb 22, 2021, 4:48 AM UTC

gfodor wrote: post #72

newacct583 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The... single greatest? Not the great empire builders? Not the USSR? Modern China, really? Not even, y'know, the ancient chinese empires who subjugated most of asia? The PRC? I mean, just objectively modern chinese citizens, while they certainly don't live under western-level protection for expression, are (owing just to technology and nothing less) vastly more able to share their opinions widely and securely than...…

Not going to fully defend the OP but the problem is things like the USSR were, in retrospect, unsustainable. The CCP, on the other hand, may have created just the right blend between totalitarianism, communism, and capitalism that is both sustainable and has global reach. We should not want to end up all-consumed by this form of government given how oppressive it is, and only time will tell just how all-consuming it…

Meh. No one thought the USSR was "unsustainable" in the 80's when they were an evil empire. And within the decade they were gone. Nazi Germany didn't look "unsustainable" either, until they lost. All great powers look unbeatable during their ascendance and weak in retrospect.

Could things get worse? Sure. But all I'm saying is that things have already been much, much, much worse. And we came out OK.

Re: Uighurs: 'Credible case' China carrying out genocide

#96

Post by refenestrator » Mon, Feb 22, 2021, 4:54 AM UTC

meowface wrote: post #88

refenestrator wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thucydides_Trap

>The Thucydides Trap, also referred to as Thucydides's Trap, is a term popularized by American political scientist Graham T. Allison to describe an apparent tendency towards war when an emerging power threatens to displace an existing great power as the international hegemon. It was coined and is primarily used to describe a potential conflict between the United States and the People's Republic of China. One shouldn'…

It's the full pattern.

Does anyone think the USA actually cares about central asian muslims? With our record and the records of our allies?

Or is this coming from collective anxiety over being eclipsed?

Re: Uighurs: 'Credible case' China carrying out genocide

#97

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Feb 22, 2021, 5:04 AM UTC

FredFS456 wrote: post #77

refenestrator wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny, at the non-dodgy URL, the opinion is the opposite: https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/02/19/china-uighurs-genocide-... "Despite the Trump administration’s declaration of a genocide in Xinjiang, upheld by the Biden administration, some legal experts suspect China’s behavior may fall short of actual genocide." This opinion by those legal experts with their nitpicky definitions of 'actual genocide' is probably relate…

I don't believe there is sufficient evidence for mass casualties, but the OP is arguing a different tack: they're saying that we have evidence for forced sterilization and targeted oppression of the Uyghur culture, which by their sources can be construed as genocide.

[deleted]

Re: Uighurs: 'Credible case' China carrying out genocide

#98

Post by dj_gitmo » Mon, Feb 22, 2021, 5:05 AM UTC

I take this issue very serious issue and I've spent a significant amount of time researching it. I think there is a settler-colonial project occurring in Xinjiang, but there are some serious problems with many of the western sources that undermine the credibility of this report.

Report https://14ee1ae3-14ee-4012-91cf-a6a3b7dc3d8b.usrfiles.com/ug...

The evidence for most of these accusations come from Adrian Zenz and ASPI. The report says:

> the works of Dr Zenz, ASPI and similar others would be accorded significant weight and would have probative value in establishing the relevant facts.

Adrian Zenz is the key source for almost all of the genocide claims but I think him and his claims should be scrutinized. The Grayzone did a very critical analysis of Zenz and his claims that is worth exporing if you are actually interested in this subject. https://thegrayzone.com/2021/02/18/us-media-reports-chinese-...

I think global attention could help the people of Xinjiang, but not if it’s hijacked by western governments who have an axe to grind with China.

Re: Uighurs: 'Credible case' China carrying out genocide

#99

Post by Clewza313 » Mon, Feb 22, 2021, 5:06 AM UTC

underseacables wrote: post #32

seattle_spring wrote: post #22

I work with a lot of folks from China and they are bending over backwards trying to defend the CCP. Their argument almost always boils down to "I know people who live in Xinjiang and they say it's not that bad." Equivalent to someone using their one black friend as proof that they can't possibly be racist.

You cannot trust anything reported out of China, absolutely nothing. I do not doubt that there are people being slaughtered and massacred as I write, but anything reported out of China must be taken deeply suspicious, especially if it comes from the government. The Chinese government is the single greatest threat to freedom, and human rights this world has ever seen.

You don't need to trust anybody's reporting, you can go browse Weibo or Toutiao or Douyin and go see for yourself what regular Chinese people are saying all across China right now. Sure, anything overly political is (self-)censored and there's some actual paid wumao shills in there, but day-to-day stuff like grumbling about local government incompetence is widespread. Here's the Xinjiang hashtag, go nuts:

https://m.weibo.cn/search?containerid=231522type%3D1%26t%3D1...

Re: Uighurs: 'Credible case' China carrying out genocide

#100

Post by unityByFreedom » Mon, Feb 22, 2021, 5:08 AM UTC

newacct583 wrote: post #94

meowface wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The Thucydides Trap, also referred to as Thucydides's Trap, is a term popularized by American political scientist Graham T. Allison to describe an apparent tendency towards war when an emerging power threatens to displace an existing great power as the international hegemon. It was coined and is primarily used to describe a potential conflict between the United States and the People's Republic of China. One shouldn'…

Yes, but I think the point was that the rhetoric above, about a nation that was "single greatest threat to freedom, and human rights this world has ever seen", absolutely sounds like it's written by someone who very much does want to go to war with China.

> sounds like it's written by someone who very much does want to go to war with China.

To me it sounds like they're saying we ought to be wary of the threat China poses to freedom. If they thought we should go to war they would say so. I only see people here calling for awareness and preparedness, not war.