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Frustrated with Parler deplatforming, I am building a service no one can silence

1b677b8f8bb20100.github.io

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Re: Frustrated with Parler deplatforming, I am building a service no one can silence

#151

Post by anon20190221 »

Simulacra wrote: post #95

Technical question: Is it possible to build a service/platform that cannot be silenced? I was thinking about Starlink and how if Musk wanted to they could make it resistant to censorship, but theoretically speaking, it would still be possible in the extreme to bring that platform down. So that raised the question in my mind: What would it take to make a platform bullet proof from censorship?

Well, some government can decide to outlaw cryptography, jam radio (this includes Starlink, Wi-Fi, Bluetooth etc.), but you can still use something like Sneakernet. So I'd argue it's possible, but one need to choose their friends very carefully.

Re: Frustrated with Parler deplatforming, I am building a service no one can silence

#152

Post by kjeetgill »

undefined1 wrote: post #35
arkitaip wrote: post #5

"You see, freedom of speech and expression must be absolute." This is a very ignorant take on freedom of speech and a terrible foundation for your project.

“To suppress free speech is a double wrong. It violates the rights of the hearer as well as those of the speaker. It is just as criminal to rob a man of his right to speak and hear as it would be to rob him of his money.” ― Frederick Douglass

“A witty saying proves nothing.” ― Voltaire

Re: Frustrated with Parler deplatforming, I am building a service no one can silence

#153

Post by mreome »

quelsolaar wrote: post #55
gchamonlive wrote: post #4

In a tolerant society, should we tolerate intolerance? I am genuinely interested to hear your thoughts.

When I grew up, outside the liquor store there used to be some drunks debating wild conspiracy theories about who killed Olof Plame. Nobody cared. Nobody felt the need to silence their obvious falsehoods. Everyone could see that they where not the brightest minds, and not worth engaging with. Today its hard to distinguish these people from scientists at the top of their fields. Maybe the issue isn't that we need to s…

The problem with "tools to distinguish who's worth listening to" is that, as you said, "its an impossible judgement to make and its impossible to find a fair judge."

No individual can be knowledgeable in all the areas of science, economics, medicine, technology, etc, that would be necessary to understand and filter even a tiny slice of the daily news. Any tool will necessarily be making judgment calls for it's users in some way, and once the tool becomes the standard, those judgments will (effectively if perhaps not literally) determine who gets banned.

Re: Frustrated with Parler deplatforming, I am building a service no one can silence

#154

Post by igetspam »

tovej wrote: post #6

"You see, freedom of speech and expression must be absolute." That's pretty extreme. First, freedom of speech is not freedom from consequence of speech. And second, freedom of speech only applies to public forums. Why would a private enterprise need to put up with someone spreading vitriol and fake news? Let's say I own a mall, and you rent a store in that mall. You suddenly decide that you are going to start selling…

Upvoted and replying because it is something everyone should have to read:

> freedom of speech is not freedom from consequence of speech.

It's a fundamental failing of comprehension to not know that. Speech is free and so are repercussions. Say what you want but know that a response is possible and also just as free.

Re: Frustrated with Parler deplatforming, I am building a service no one can silence

#155

Post by anon20190221 »

zerez wrote: post #148

https://github.com/majestrate/bitchan This seems already close enough to what the author is proposing. Even the language choice is the same. Your project will still require the users to download a 3rd party software to run it, which I believe to be the main problem with the current approaches. Therefore I don't see anything new this is bringing to the table. It's no different than downloading and running the imageboa…

Yes, somewhat similar. Thanks for the link. The major difference here is that Pepe runs on a mix network similar to I2P, this helps hide your identity whereas anyone can see what you are doing with plain Bitcoin.

To answer the question in your comment: yes, you can install and configure I2P, you can install iMule on top of it to exchange files and some distributed forum to post on. But the usability of all that is really low even for a pro-user. The performance is also not great because those systems were not designed to be used with each other from scratch.

Re: Frustrated with Parler deplatforming, I am building a service no one can silence

#156

Post by krapp »

LocalH wrote: post #69
tclancy wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Watch: this is some white dude worrying that white dudes might be silenced. Show me all the money trying to make marginalized voices heard and then you cannot fuck off into the multiverse like whichever anime show you Stan but don’t respect.

Stop equating strong freedom-of-speech ideals with racism. Nobody should be silenced unless they are directly inciting violence. Remember, any exceptions can be twisted around as social norms change.

>Nobody should be silenced unless they are directly inciting violence.

>Remember, any exceptions can be twisted around as social norms change.

If no exceptions to free speech can be allowed because they could possibly be twisted, then neither can the exception for directly inciting violence. Absolute means absolute.

Re: Frustrated with Parler deplatforming, I am building a service no one can silence

#157

Post by mreome »

barbacoa wrote: post #31
tovej wrote: post #6

"You see, freedom of speech and expression must be absolute." That's pretty extreme. First, freedom of speech is not freedom from consequence of speech. And second, freedom of speech only applies to public forums. Why would a private enterprise need to put up with someone spreading vitriol and fake news? Let's say I own a mall, and you rent a store in that mall. You suddenly decide that you are going to start selling…

People do have free speech rights at private owned malls. Not sure if that would apply to stores but courts have ruled it does apply to people at malls (and other public areas that are privately owned). https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pruneyard_Shopping_Center_v....

I would point out that according to that link this is not a right under the US constitution, but a right under the California Constitution which contains a broader affirmative right of free speech. The U.S. Supreme Court has held that there is no implied right of free speech within a private shopping centers under the under US Constitution.

Also, at least 13 other US states with similarly worded rights to free speech in their constitutions have ruled that this does not include a right of free speech in private shopping centers, as has the European Court of Human Rights.

Re: Frustrated with Parler deplatforming, I am building a service no one can silence

#158

Post by quelsolaar »

mreome wrote: post #153
quelsolaar wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I grew up, outside the liquor store there used to be some drunks debating wild conspiracy theories about who killed Olof Plame. Nobody cared. Nobody felt the need to silence their obvious falsehoods. Everyone could see that they where not the brightest minds, and not worth engaging with. Today its hard to distinguish these people from scientists at the top of their fields. Maybe the issue isn't that we need to s…

The problem with "tools to distinguish who's worth listening to" is that, as you said, "its an impossible judgement to make and its impossible to find a fair judge." No individual can be knowledgeable in all the areas of science, economics, medicine, technology, etc, that would be necessary to understand and filter even a tiny slice of the daily news. Any tool will necessarily be making judgment calls for it's users…

You are right. This isnt easy, but i do think there are some things worth exploring:

Science isn't controlled by one body, but by a network of peers that reaffirms or disproves prior work. Over time consensus is built, without the need to silence.

Right now we use clicks as proxy for value. What if we structured it differently like, give people a limited pot of recommendation tokens they could use to show others what they value. If someone gives 3 months of tokens to a 10 page article, maybe that's worth reading?

I dont know if these are the right metrics but we need to experiment.

YouTube did the opposit when they wanted to reach 1 billion hours a day: they promoted anyone who had a channel that produced 1h of content a day. That meant that all the alternative news/facts talk-shows got a huge boost and that lead to a lot of bad things.

Re: Frustrated with Parler deplatforming, I am building a service no one can silence

#159

Post by fay59 »

ethbr0 wrote: post #116
fay59 wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With “absolute free speech”, a couple of us could find your name and address, spread credible and damaging falsehoods about you, and there’s nothing you could do to stop us. And that’s not just in some online soapbox; we could call your employer, make police reports, put ads in newspapers, put posters on utility poles, tell your neighbours, tell the businesses that serve you, etc.

Yes. And we could do the same back to you. Presumably society would eventually get over itself and evolving into something more tolerant of personal opinions, and questioning internet-sourced information. Or, from another perspective, the only alternative is that only some people can do that. (E.g. politicians, security services, etc) I'm not sure that would be preferable.

Choosing to be at the mercy of the people with the best opsec instead of the government sure is a take.

EDIT: I mean “in addition to the government”.

Re: Frustrated with Parler deplatforming, I am building a service no one can silence

#160

Post by jakelazaroff »

jojobas wrote: post #109
ojnabieoot wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“I may disagree with what you say, but I will not write a critical Hacker News comment, since you are a pathological crybaby who interprets any negative remark as an act of censorship.” Nowhere did I say that the app should be “shut down.” I said it shouldn’t be supported.

Whatever Twitter/Youtube doesn't support is effectively shut down. If nobody supports a p2p project like this than everyone who could use it are shut down.

There’s a ton of distance between the Voltaire quote goalposts and the corporate social network deplatforming goalposts. Voltaire wasn’t dying for anyone’s right to post videos on YouTube.
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