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OpenBSD boots multi-user on Apple M1 hardware

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Re: OpenBSD boots multi-user on Apple M1 hardware

#101

Post by unglaublich »

alsetmusic wrote: post #4

So much for the many remarks made on HN claiming that Apple would use the M1 to further exert control over users’ ability to boot an alternative OS. Between this and Asahi Linux, I’d say things are off to a good start. Btw, Asahi has a Patreon page for anyone who wants to contribute. I’m tossing twelve bucks a month and recommend any Mac users with interest in booting alternative OSes support such projects. Now I’m g…

This achievement, solely made possible by the OpenBSD team, does not contradict that statement about Apple, in any way.

Re: OpenBSD boots multi-user on Apple M1 hardware

#102

Post by dwaite »

unglaublich wrote: post #101
alsetmusic wrote: post #4

So much for the many remarks made on HN claiming that Apple would use the M1 to further exert control over users’ ability to boot an alternative OS. Between this and Asahi Linux, I’d say things are off to a good start. Btw, Asahi has a Patreon page for anyone who wants to contribute. I’m tossing twelve bucks a month and recommend any Mac users with interest in booting alternative OSes support such projects. Now I’m g…

This achievement, solely made possible by the OpenBSD team, does not contradict that statement about Apple, in any way.

Also somewhat made possible by other teams as well as by Apple who added a mechanism to let alternative operating systems boot.

Re: OpenBSD boots multi-user on Apple M1 hardware

#103

Post by mjg59 »

saagarjha wrote: post #97
mjg59 wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

WWDC included discussion of "Reduced security" mode, which allows downgrading to old signed versions of MacOS, but I don't remember any disclosure of plans to permit arbitrary operating systems at that point - do you have a pointer? Edit: The transcript at https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2020/10686/ discusses reduced security, but doesn't say anything about booting arbitrary code.

You found the right talk, but it’s actually only waved at and not explicitly discussed so it’s not in the transcript. At about 19 minutes the engineer mentions that a csrutil will be able to do more things and on the slide disabling secure boot is one of them. (This actually got moved into bputil, but the intent was there at least.)

That indicates that csrutil would be able to do /something/ with secure boot policy, but I really don't interpret that as a commitment to being able to boot arbitrary operating systems - if we were still unable to do so today, I don't think you'd be able to put up a strong argument that Apple had broken a commitment.

Re: OpenBSD boots multi-user on Apple M1 hardware

#104

Post by dwaite »

pushrax wrote: post #84
Wowfunhappy wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really, that goes for any guest OS other than maybe Windows, and Windows is different only because VM developers have poured an enormous amount of time and money into it. You can get rid of the sluggishness with GPU passthrough... but then the guest OS would still need GPU drivers.

I'm don't think you can do GPU or PCI passthrough on macOS. Not sure if/when Apple would consider adding that. I'm glad the things I want to do on Linux are all terminal based. I used a tiling WM for years on Arch and don't miss it much with all the macOS WM extensions available now (Magnet, Rectangle, Moom, Hammerspoon, etc). Less themeable but perfectly functional.

> I'm don't think you can do GPU or PCI passthrough on macOS. Not sure if/when Apple would consider adding that.

With Big Sur, Apple now has paravirtualization support. It exposes Metal API to manipulate virtual display devices. See https://developer.apple.com/documentation/paravirtualizedgra...

I doubt Apple has any intention of publishing hardware documentation for someone to write a native driver, but there are behavioral reverse engineering efforts already underway.

Re: OpenBSD boots multi-user on Apple M1 hardware

#105

Post by xiphias2 »

saagarjha wrote: post #40
xiphias2 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple needs open source hackers to port all open source software to M1 chips for free before locking them more down. To be honest I just ordered my first MacBook Pro as well, so I guess I’m part of the ,,problem’’

That makes very little sense. What does Apple get out of letting people run Linux and OpenBSD, then preventing it?

To have every open source app ported to their processor, and get the usage up. I'm a developer and I love the specs of the hardware, and I need open source tools to work on it.

On the long term though they can get more App store / cloud revenue by making sure that Apple's apps are always ahead in hardware compatibility.

Re: OpenBSD boots multi-user on Apple M1 hardware

#106

Post by saagarjha »

mjg59 wrote: post #103
saagarjha wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You found the right talk, but it’s actually only waved at and not explicitly discussed so it’s not in the transcript. At about 19 minutes the engineer mentions that a csrutil will be able to do more things and on the slide disabling secure boot is one of them. (This actually got moved into bputil, but the intent was there at least.)

That indicates that csrutil would be able to do /something/ with secure boot policy, but I really don't interpret that as a commitment to being able to boot arbitrary operating systems - if we were still unable to do so today, I don't think you'd be able to put up a strong argument that Apple had broken a commitment.

The only thing I can plausibly interpret that as is “we’ll let you turn off secure boot” (I mean, what else can you do?). I agree that Apple never committed to anything beyond that (and I am pleasantly surprised as to how much effort and documentation went into what they have currently given) but I think it is a reasonable interpretation from the slides that getting some sort of OS loaded that isn’t Apple’s is something they had advertised.

Re: OpenBSD boots multi-user on Apple M1 hardware

#107

Post by saagarjha »

xiphias2 wrote: post #105
saagarjha wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That makes very little sense. What does Apple get out of letting people run Linux and OpenBSD, then preventing it?

To have every open source app ported to their processor, and get the usage up. I'm a developer and I love the specs of the hardware, and I need open source tools to work on it. On the long term though they can get more App store / cloud revenue by making sure that Apple's apps are always ahead in hardware compatibility.

Porting apps does not require them to open up their boot sequence.

Re: OpenBSD boots multi-user on Apple M1 hardware

#108

Post by tiew9Vii »

etaioinshrdlu wrote: post #31
messe wrote: post #17

Fantastic. OpenBSD on an M1 Mac Mini would be a great home server. As for desktop, I love cwm on my thinkpads, but macbook touchpads have won me over. That said, if arcan gets to a usable state on OpenBSD, I wouldn't mind sinking a few weekends (and/or crates of beer) into helping with improving touchpad/gesture support. X11 is just too daunting to have me bothered.

I don't mean to be dismissive, but isn't almost anything a decent home server nowadays? As long as your'e OK with the performance, size, cost, storage, there are just myriad options available. Just about any PC or mac would do. Finally, we all have our own preferences, but I'm not sure why one would really want to use OpenBSD for a home server. There's less driver support or application support than just about any ot…

The M1 mini would be a great home server in its form-factor (small size), power usage and performance. As the current mini is pretty much an empty shell, the minis' size should get smaller in the next generations. Intel nucs are popular for these reasons, but it seems the M1 will give better performance/power/size.

I've used Linux for the past 20 years. I recently tried OpenBSD because I never used a BSD, so I thought I wanted to have a look and had a pet project building a home router. My experience of OpenBSD as a headless server is it's been an absolute joy to use. Simple, well structured and strong consistency with config and where files are placed, great man pages etc. From no experience at all with OpenBSD I had a fully functioning router with PF, multiple vlans, cross vlan firewall roules, mdns repeating etc etc within a few hours. Regarding fiddling with things, for a headless server, it's been the easiest server I've set up to date.

The only negative experience I've had is when not shut down properly I've had a few issues starting it. I think I could solve that if I wanted to. Using it as a router I can set up a read-only filesystem etc. The other drawback is it's not Linux and I use Docker daily for development so would need to do what Docker on OSX does and run Docker in a Linux vm.

Re: OpenBSD boots multi-user on Apple M1 hardware

#109

Post by digidob »

mhh__ wrote: post #38
Shared404 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with most of what you say, but this: > And Computers stopped being mere tools years ago - the phone has now supplanted the laptop and desktop in this regard Is just plainly inaccurate. The phone has nowhere near supplanted the desktop in multiple scenarios. Office work and programming [0] both come to mind. [0] And this was the specific use-case brought up by the parent. Pretty obvious a phone is not a compet…

My point was that the phone has supplanted the computer as the sole device for many people i.e. people of my generation will often ask for an app rather than a website

To add to your point, an app is typically preferred for it’s performance compared to a website in a browser. As is developing on hardware with known quirks and structure vs vague hardware. I don’t understand the defense that developing on FOSS within unknown walls is somehow acceptable.

Re: OpenBSD boots multi-user on Apple M1 hardware

#110

Post by etaioinshrdlu »

tiew9Vii wrote: post #108
etaioinshrdlu wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't mean to be dismissive, but isn't almost anything a decent home server nowadays? As long as your'e OK with the performance, size, cost, storage, there are just myriad options available. Just about any PC or mac would do. Finally, we all have our own preferences, but I'm not sure why one would really want to use OpenBSD for a home server. There's less driver support or application support than just about any ot…

The M1 mini would be a great home server in its form-factor (small size), power usage and performance. As the current mini is pretty much an empty shell, the minis' size should get smaller in the next generations. Intel nucs are popular for these reasons, but it seems the M1 will give better performance/power/size. I've used Linux for the past 20 years. I recently tried OpenBSD because I never used a BSD, so I though…

CPU performance is a funny argument for a router as the hardware reqs on a home router are already so low. My current router is gigabit, has best in class WiFi, is smaller than a mac mini and is fanless.

I got to say though: PF, multiple vlans, cross vlan firewall roules, mdns repeating do not sound like something a home user should be setting up. The only reason one would play with these things in a home environment is because they want to. Which is fine... but makes it a toy/pet project and not something to recommend to others. My home router is Ubiquiti and it "just works" zero fiddling required. I'm not sure why one would want anything more complex for a home environment.

I guess we all have different preferences where we like to spend our time. I fiddled with things for decades, now I only want to fiddle for something really worth it.

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