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OpenBSD boots multi-user on Apple M1 hardware

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Re: OpenBSD boots multi-user on Apple M1 hardware

#61

Post by asveikau »

ogre_codes wrote: post #22
asveikau wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe you are more accurately describing it. Some of them also say that free OSs are often behind on Mac hardware anyway, even on Intel. But the implication that I read into it is there's little reason to do it.

No big mystery here, people who buy Macs, prefer MacOS and don't see why you'd bother with Desktop Linux in general. I'm personally interested in Linux on the Mac as a curiosity and as an alternative in case Apple ever screws up MacOS so much I feel desktop Linux is the least bad alternative.

I think M1 is a perfect example of why one might want to consider Apple's hardware and software in isolation, rather than a single integrated piece. There isn't currently another ARM laptop with the same performance characteristics.

There have been other times when I thought apple hardware was more interesting than macOS. I don't think macOS is bad per se. There are times when I find it pleasant and times when I would greatly prefer something else. The attitude we're describing -- why use Linux when there is macOS?? -- strikes me as a little odd, because there is a built in hostility and assumption that everyone shares the Mac fan's opinions and preferences, universally and in all circumstances.

Re: OpenBSD boots multi-user on Apple M1 hardware

#62

Post by kitsunesoba »

messe wrote: post #17

Fantastic. OpenBSD on an M1 Mac Mini would be a great home server. As for desktop, I love cwm on my thinkpads, but macbook touchpads have won me over. That said, if arcan gets to a usable state on OpenBSD, I wouldn't mind sinking a few weekends (and/or crates of beer) into helping with improving touchpad/gesture support. X11 is just too daunting to have me bothered.

> OpenBSD on an M1 Mac Mini would be a great home server.

That does sound really nice. Once the price on SSDs comes down a bit I'd love to replace my Dell PowerEdge T20 Plex/Time Machine box with a Mac mini with stackable TB4 enclosure containing a few M.2 SSDs. It'd take a fraction of the space and power while being much more responsive.

Re: OpenBSD boots multi-user on Apple M1 hardware

#63

Post by rgovostes »

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #56
rgovostes wrote: post #51

Running an alternative OS "natively" on a Mac doesn't seem very appealing to me. It's almost guaranteed you will never fully get Wi-Fi, audio, graphics acceleration, the trackpad, etc. working flawlessly, especially on the M1 where almost every component is Apple proprietary and it's not a matter of loading, say, some common Intel graphics driver. On the other hand, virtualization _already_ lets you run whatever arm6…

I absolutely expect Asahi to get all of those things working in due course. Lots of smart people are working on it.

It doesn't feel like it's the best use of their talents, though.

Re: OpenBSD boots multi-user on Apple M1 hardware

#64

Post by hedora »

dannyw wrote: post #49
cat199 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you actually used OpenBSD? Agree available drivers/applications might be less than a mainstream linux, but for what is there, things work completely solidly and require basically negative fiddling

If you have a mainstream motherboard, you'll likely have Realtek Ethernet drivers. These do not reliably work in OpenBSD and will hang if you try to use it as a NAS.

I’ve found when shopping for a motherboard, it’s usually $10-20 more for intel ethernet, which is a much better experience under Linux and *BSD

Re: OpenBSD boots multi-user on Apple M1 hardware

#65

Post by MagnumPIG »

rgovostes wrote: post #63
Wowfunhappy wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I absolutely expect Asahi to get all of those things working in due course. Lots of smart people are working on it.

It doesn't feel like it's the best use of their talents, though.

Neither is making a black box a good use of Apple's talents, yet here we are.

Re: OpenBSD boots multi-user on Apple M1 hardware

#66

Post by rgovostes »

amatecha wrote: post #60
rgovostes wrote: post #51

Running an alternative OS "natively" on a Mac doesn't seem very appealing to me. It's almost guaranteed you will never fully get Wi-Fi, audio, graphics acceleration, the trackpad, etc. working flawlessly, especially on the M1 where almost every component is Apple proprietary and it's not a matter of loading, say, some common Intel graphics driver. On the other hand, virtualization _already_ lets you run whatever arm6…

literally just installed OpenBSD on my iMac G4 last week, haha (oh yeah, everything works flawlessly btw, including graphics acceleration)

The iMac G4 didn't support virtualization, so booting an alternative OS is more attractive. And the Nvidia GPU is probably easier to find cross-platform drivers for. New drivers or some sort of IOKit compatibility layer need to be developed for the M1 GPU (which is orders of magnitude more complex).

(I can run OpenBSD on any modern piece of hardware, though; the novelty and nostalgia are in running Mac OS 9 on that.)

Re: OpenBSD boots multi-user on Apple M1 hardware

#67

Post by IgorPartola »

rgovostes wrote: post #51

Running an alternative OS "natively" on a Mac doesn't seem very appealing to me. It's almost guaranteed you will never fully get Wi-Fi, audio, graphics acceleration, the trackpad, etc. working flawlessly, especially on the M1 where almost every component is Apple proprietary and it's not a matter of loading, say, some common Intel graphics driver. On the other hand, virtualization _already_ lets you run whatever arm6…

I think there is another way to look at it. If not for Apple’s hardware policies, you would just be able to run your favorite OS on their hardware. It’s the fact that they publish EULAs and NDAs so long that it probably wouldn’t have fit I to the RAM of their first computers which actively slow down or prohibit any work by developers. Why isn’t it Apple whom we should find unappealing?

Re: OpenBSD boots multi-user on Apple M1 hardware

#68

Post by TheRealSteel »

ogre_codes wrote: post #24
TheRealSteel wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That wasn't an assumption or knee-jerk reaction. Apple went on record as saying other operating systems wouldn't boot on Apple Silicon. Admittedly there's enough vagueness that they didn't 100% rule it out completely, but I think it was a fair interpretation of what they said at the time. Craig Federighi said this when talking to John Gruber: "We're not direct booting an alternate operating system, it's... purely vir…

You are quoting a reddit comment which mis-interpreted what Federighi said. They didn't say they would prevent alternative operating systems from booting, only that they aren't doing it . As opposed to the fact that they are in fact helping get Linux running in the hypervisor and actually demoed Linux running in a VM before it was public. Apple documented how people could boot alternative operating systems.

I reiterate that I believe it was a reasonable interpretation of what Apple said.

Re: OpenBSD boots multi-user on Apple M1 hardware

#69

Post by Wowfunhappy »

linuxhansl wrote: post #45
alsetmusic wrote: post #4

So much for the many remarks made on HN claiming that Apple would use the M1 to further exert control over users’ ability to boot an alternative OS. Between this and Asahi Linux, I’d say things are off to a good start. Btw, Asahi has a Patreon page for anyone who wants to contribute. I’m tossing twelve bucks a month and recommend any Mac users with interest in booting alternative OSes support such projects. Now I’m g…

I'm not sure I understand what Apple contributed here. It's not supported, helped, or encouraged by Apple. And Apple does not document their H/W in ways that allow reuse. Hence these are all reverse engineering projects. Apple _is_ a walled garden ecosystem. That has many obvious advantages, things just work, etc. Personally I happen to not like it, but it's a choice folks have to make by themselves. I buy my H/W fro…

They explicitly built a mechanism for loading alternate OS's. I'm not going to sing Apple's praises over that or anything, but it means that Macs are still an order of magnitude less locked down than, say, an iPhone. You have the ability to do whatever you want with a Mac... provided you figure out how.

Re: OpenBSD boots multi-user on Apple M1 hardware

#70

Post by ogre_codes »

asveikau wrote: post #61
ogre_codes wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No big mystery here, people who buy Macs, prefer MacOS and don't see why you'd bother with Desktop Linux in general. I'm personally interested in Linux on the Mac as a curiosity and as an alternative in case Apple ever screws up MacOS so much I feel desktop Linux is the least bad alternative.

I think M1 is a perfect example of why one might want to consider Apple's hardware and software in isolation, rather than a single integrated piece. There isn't currently another ARM laptop with the same performance characteristics. There have been other times when I thought apple hardware was more interesting than macOS. I don't think macOS is bad per se. There are times when I find it pleasant and times when I woul…

I get it. It's a matter of perspective.

As a Linux/ OpenBSD user, Mac hardware is suddenly a bit more appealing.

As a Mac user, the reverse it not true. OpenBSD or Linux are no more appealing than it was before the switch.

As for the rest of your post, I feel like the conversation is moving here under me. Use whatever OS you want. I don't see a ton of Mac people on here discouraging or disparaging any of this. I do see a a fair number of posts like the top one. "Running an alternative OS natively on a Mac doesn't seem very appealing to me." Which I don't see as the same as what you are suggesting.

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