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Margaret Mitchell fired from Google

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Re: Margaret Mitchell fired from Google

#741
post #479

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I want to learn more about your peer set, this is really curious.

No, its just how some people mangle English. I didn't go to Oxbridge, but a lot of my workmates in the eighties did and they sometimes wrote very strange sentence structure. An American instance: Prof Dave Mills (certainly in no sense a peer, since he's out of my league, but we did write on the same arpanet and pre great renaming Usenet lists. Also he didn't go to Oxbridge) says this of his own style of writing: It i…

This is a situation, up with which, I shall not put

Re: Margaret Mitchell fired from Google

#742

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't write that that we couldn't, it was about how we could. For example we shouldn't tell a coworker that he/she's pretty, shouldn't get drunk together, and a lot of behaviour that is considered flirting and getting to know eachother in Switzerland. In US behaviour outside Google is handled by the company as well, but in Switzerland there are very strict privacy laws and culture that forbid companies to control…

Typically that type of employee training in US is meant to limit sexual harassment, where a person thinks they are flirting and the co-worker on the receiving end is offended. HR would step in at that point and take action against the harasser, so i see that kind of training about being careful in socializing as a way to warn people about the consequences of their actions.

Is it sexual harassment because it's in the workplace or it's because the receiving end didn't like it/the flirting person or because flirting IS a sexual harassment?

Re: Margaret Mitchell fired from Google

#743

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Legal guidelines are legalistic. I provided a concise neutral summary. And you have time to read if you have time to argue. "Proposed" and "discuss" are neutral. "Threatened" and "bluff" are loaded. And anyone this far into the comments should have read about the original case.

I'm not a lawyer and have no intention of deciding the legal definitions of this case myself, I look to those who actually know what they are talking about to do so. I note you still haven't provided a link to anybody clarifying it in a reasonably neutral way; I suspect there isn't one without bias (either way). Nobody "proposes" resignation in such circumstances to an employer unless they are fully in battle. And ac…

I actually know what I'm talking about. Some other people here actually know what they're talking about. I'm not going to waste my time finding more links when you can just call them biased or too legalistic.

You quoted a reporter paraphrasing Gebru. And "proposed" doesn't mean everything was peaceful.

Re: Margaret Mitchell fired from Google

#744
post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Free speech is almost purely limited to interactions with a state. Why are people trying to shoehorn it into everything?

Free speech is a moral value. The First Amendment is limited to the Government.

How is free speech a moral value? Speaking your mind, honesty, bravery are moral values:-)

Re: Margaret Mitchell fired from Google

#745
post #670

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There seem to be quite a few people that consider Dr. Gebru to be one of the leading scientists within that specific (sub)field. I don't know the field well enough to have an opinion on the merits but it seems like a view one might disagree with but would not be surprised to find somebody to hold.

But calling someone "one of the world's leading scientists within their specific subfield" is a much, much weaker claim than calling them "one of the world's leading scientists". People in the latter category win Nobel Prizes, not Twitter fights.

When both people involved share a subfield and the piece is talking about what's fundamentally intra-subfield drama, I'd say there are three possibilities:

1) They meant "within the subfield" but assumed it could be taken from context 2) They meant "within the subfield" but have an overinflated notion of the importance of their subfield 3) They genuinely believe the strongest form of the claim

Which of these possibilities one considers most likely probably depends more on one's prior opinion of the people involved than anything else, and I continue to not really have a prior opinion because this whole situation is a trainwreck and I don't know the background well enough to be able to even start to try and read past the biases of the various people commenting.

Re: Margaret Mitchell fired from Google

#747

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exfiltration could just mean forwarding emails to herself or her lawyer. Any lawyer would tell her not to comment on the accusations. Especially before she was fired.

Except you can't do that. The problem is Google has no idea that this is where the documents/e-mails went. All they can see is that a large number of documents and e-mails were sent outside of Google. I can't imagine Google would say, well it's okay if you take the law into your own hands. Any lawyer should be able to send a note telling Google to preserve the files for potential litigation. And given that she seems…

Legal counsel is a common exception to NDAs. Different jurisdictions have different specific rules. And most people would have tried to hide it. But saying you can't do that isn't true categorically.

She could have taken files that weren't material. But that's just speculation.

Google claimed the documents went to multiple external accounts. So they must know which accounts. So Mitchell could say who owned them. And they could verify.

Any lawyer will tell you to preserve evidence yourself if you can.

How would people sympathetic to her cause preserve evidence without violating Google's policies?

What might be disclosed during the trial is the same as if Google provided the files.

Re: Margaret Mitchell fired from Google

#748

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of these "AI ethics researchers" seem like wingnuts, and their profession appears to serve more of a PR purpose than a business purpose. What am I missing? Why are they so essential? Are these people the canaries in the coal mine, or do they simply exist because of paranoia and political correctness?

Google created these jobs and deemed them important. Like I agree, if AI ethics researchers are doing their job correctly Google will be unhappy with them, but this is really what Google offered, lots of freedom. You can be as cynical as you want but the fact Google fired them with little rhyme or reason and destroyed their team is BAD thing, we should be upset at Google for it.

I don't think that's true. AI ethic researchers should provide solutions, rather than simply pointing out problems, especially for companies. You need to provide solutions how things can move forward, that's your job.

Re: Margaret Mitchell fired from Google

#749
post #602

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be misleading to call forwarding emails to herself or her lawyer exfiltration. But it wouldn't be lying.

It wouldn't be either misleading or lying, if her or her lawyer want personal copies of the emails they can apply to a court. They have no right to unilaterally decide to take personal copies of internal communications.

Legal counsel is a common exception to NDAs. Different jurisdictions have different specific rules. Are you familiar with California's rules?

Re: Margaret Mitchell fired from Google

#750

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm pretty confident the crux of the issue is "We expected to be treated better in this department than what we have had to tolerate elsewhere due to sexism, racism, etc." And I think they expected that based on "This is the Ethical AI department. We are trying to make the world a better place. You do that by walking the walk first, not just researching how AI works." That's what I think. It's not something I can pro…

Thank you for the perspective. Assuming you are correct, is there a way to reset expectations without blowing up the department? Not that we shouldn't be striving to be ethical, but it is clear that Google doesn't like the direction the team is heading. If Google is truly interested in the thorny issues of making AI as ethical as possible, can it do so without tackling the (seemingly insurmountable) issue of social e…

I would start by renaming the department to reflect the idea that the mission is to explore and understand how and why things go wrong socially with the deployment of so-called AI.

I don't know what that name should be. I've had maybe two hours of sleep and this is likely a thing that would require research.

I've had college classes in Social Psychology, Negotiation and Conflict Management and Homelessness and Public Policy. All three of those classes deal with topics you could think of as falling under the umbrella of human ethics. None of them has that word in the title.

You need to first and foremost understand how things happen. You need to understand that before making value judgements concerning ethics.

Speaking of ethics in AI before you even know how and why you get certain outcomes amounts to putting the cart before the horse.

Seeking to understand how things happen for thorny topics inevitably raises hackles.

I was molested and raped as a child. I speak somewhat often on topics like rape and there is a long history of people accusing me of being a rape apologist.

I would like to see rape happen less often in the world. That goal requires one to understand what goes wrong socially without first assuming "Men are just all rapey bastards with hearts of pure evil who do evil things intentionally, knowingly and on purpose."

A lot of people who have already been hurt by the current state of things don't want to understand what happened. They want "justice" by which they typically mean revenge.

You will be facing that same dynamic for AI and issues of racial justice, gendered issues, etc.

Many people will call you a White supremacist or a misogynist for trying to understand what went wrong as neutrally as possible.

But that is the only useful first step for actually redressing a lot of social ills.

Fiction sometimes covers this. People consume it, get jazzed at feeling "their side" understood for once and then routinely fail to actually apply those lessons in life.

Fiction sometimes gives you both sides of a story and lets you see how a+b went kaboom although neither was inherently bad. Research needs to seek that perspective.

Ethics occurs at the point where you apply the research. Simply taking a look at how it happens will not be about ethics and will, in fact, make most people pretty darn uncomfortable.

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