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Margaret Mitchell fired from Google

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Re: Margaret Mitchell fired from Google

#471

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Who's to say she didn't I'm saying that either she didn't or her lawyer fucking sucks.

'Wrongful termination doesn't tend to hit the court system like you think it should unless you have hard evidence, particularly in at will states' is absolutely something I've heard from lawyers.

Discovery is a thing. Big companies are more likely to catch these shenanigans, making it automatically a legit term, and also more likely to have retention policies where you can get it later in discovery.

You're right about smaller corps.

Re: Margaret Mitchell fired from Google

#472
post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jews do not eat ham. They also don't celebrate Christmas. Having an office Christmas party and serving mostly ham is a great way to drive home exclusion. Or e.g. demanding people work late Fridays. Observant Jews absolutely, positively have to get home by sundown on Friday.

Many Jews (like me) will eat ham and happily celebrate at your Christmas party though. You’ll never please everyone.

Would you celebrate any less happily if the holiday party had kosher food?

Re: Margaret Mitchell fired from Google

#473

“After conducting a review of this manager’s conduct, we confirmed that there were multiple violations of our code of conduct, as well as of our security policies, which included the exfiltration of confidential business-sensitive documents and private data of other employees,” a Google spokesman said in a statement. This feels pretty cut and dry to me. Meg exported business material from the company. That a fire-abl…

It’s pretty cool we can just take Google at it’s word after a 5 week investigation with literally no details coming out. Google also decided to drop this bombshell on a Friday the same day they are announcing a rebranded ethics team. It’s clear they wanted to bury this story and the leaders of the old team. I for one don’t plan to in any way give Google the benefit of the doubt here...

Well the good news is, they open themselves up to lawsuits or adjudication by making false claims about the reason for firing someone. So we can just wait and see if those are forthcoming

Re: Margaret Mitchell fired from Google

#474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s pretty cool we can just take Google at it’s word after a 5 week investigation with literally no details coming out. Google also decided to drop this bombshell on a Friday the same day they are announcing a rebranded ethics team. It’s clear they wanted to bury this story and the leaders of the old team. I for one don’t plan to in any way give Google the benefit of the doubt here...

1. Lying about why an employee fired in an easily verified way is a huge unforced error. We can probably assume Google is not that incompetent. 2. She hasn't denied the accusations.

She could of downloaded documents for an attorney or to search for the allegations Timnit was accused of. Google will of course phrase it as damningly as possible.

So once again, why assume Google has the moral high ground (in any way) in this firing or is being honest at all in it?

Re: Margaret Mitchell fired from Google

#475

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She probably should have discussed this plan with her lawyer before exfiltrating the documents.

Who's to say she didn't. Some of the wrongful termination suits I've seen personally lived and died based on if an employee had their own copy of emails. Discovery doesn't always work against an entity that's already behaving illegally.

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Re: Margaret Mitchell fired from Google

#476

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For myself, I reconcile the tension by telling myself that giant tech companies are like invasive species - aggressive and bad for the environment in the short term, but also the only thing that can survive in a certain kind of environment. The proper goal, as I see it, is to plan to build the next giant tech company and be willing to step on as many toes as necessary to make it happen... but to have an ideal in mind…

have an ideal in mind that goes beyond that 'growth at all costs' stage in which the company could actually increase the health of its ecosystem. Ideal is right, because that is idealistic to the point of naivete. The second a company takes its eye off the ball and starts trying to better the world, its competitors swoop in and take over. The right answer is for a society to create laws that ensure the behavior we wa…

See, that looks to me like naivete about the behaviour of the regulatory apparatus.

Ultimately, a civilisation runs on both rules and tools, and while we clearly have opposite biases about where the low-hanging fruit are, I think we also both know it's not really true that there are zero improvements to be made in either realm. I'd be happy to share my scepticism about attempts to reform the 'rules' side of the equation if you like, but my own interest is in tools.

Some tools allow a few players to dominate a limited number of niches, others allow many players to thrive in many niches. If you're going to be a toolmaker, trying to gain dominance and then keep the environment static is actually a self-limiting strategy, Nothing in nature or history has proven able to do that. The only time one player can dominate a limited number of niches is when there are few niches to begin with. Successfully dominating a niche actually gives more opportunities to create niches adjacent to one's own. Amazon carving out a niche in e-commerce is what allows it to provide services to authors and vendors.

Re: Margaret Mitchell fired from Google

#477
post #417

"Firing @timnitGebru created a domino effect of trauma for me and the rest of the team, and I believe we are being increasingly punished for that trauma." Wow. These activists are truly living in an alternate reality.

Everything is a "literal act of violence" to these people.

Google is run by naive idealists who hire activists in droves and are then surprised to realize that those people are a bunch of unemployables.

Re: Margaret Mitchell fired from Google

#478

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since she's an at will worker, it'll be difficult to prove she was fired illegally

All the more reason for her to have a copy of her emails.

"I know, since I'm worried I'm going to get fired for vague non-specific reasons, I'm going to directly violate company policy and get terminated for cause" is an odd game plan.

Re: Margaret Mitchell fired from Google

#479
post #335

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How old are you? I'm 59. In my peer set, this is normal.

I want to learn more about your peer set, this is really curious.

No, its just how some people mangle English. I didn't go to Oxbridge, but a lot of my workmates in the eighties did and they sometimes wrote very strange sentence structure. An American instance: Prof Dave Mills (certainly in no sense a peer, since he's out of my league, but we did write on the same arpanet and pre great renaming Usenet lists. Also he didn't go to Oxbridge) says this of his own style of writing:

It is an open secret among my correspondents that I on occasion do twitch the English language in mail messages and published works. Paper referees have come to agreement on what they call millsspeak to refer to the subtilities with which I personalize my work. If you read my papers or my mail, you know my resonances. If not, you can calibrate my naughtimeter from children's books

Jon Crowcroft, who is a CS professor in Cambridge, but was a phd student in ucl-cs when I worked there in the eighties: http://paravirtualization.blogspot.com/ also, probably presumptuous to call him a peer: if he keeps going, he may be one both literally, and by appointment. Of the realm that is, not I.

Overall I think I miswrote above. Absent a time machine, it stands.

Obviously, this stuff irritates a lot of people. I apologise, but really at this stage I doubt I'm changing.

Btw, and please forgive me if this is a breach of privacy but HN comment history shows you've accumulated a 25 year deep curated unix command history file. If I had the forethought to have done the same (which btw, is a brilliant idea) it would be older than yours. It most definitely would not be better, and very possibly more narrow in focus. I suspect, the pretensions of written English aside, we're not that different.

Re: Margaret Mitchell fired from Google

#480

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> “After conducting a review of this manager’s conduct, we confirmed that there were multiple violations of our code of conduct, as well as of our security policies, which included the exfiltration of confidential business-sensitive documents and private data of other employees.” I assume this was to release to the press to shame/pressure Google, and wasn't corporate espionage. But what reason do you think she was do…

But did she release documents to the press? Exfiltration of confidential documents could mean just forwarding emails to herself or an employment lawyer.

I don't know if she's released them to the press.

What's your best guess for why she was running a script to exfiltrate a bunch of e-mails related to Gebru?

Mine is it involves releasing them to the press.

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