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I Miss My Bar

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Re: I Miss My Bar

#411

Post by kelnos »

zo1 wrote: post #381
CydeWeys wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Living in a flat as a single person in the big exciting city? Literally everything you do has been illegal or restricted in some form for almost a year now. And unsafe , too. I'm not not going to restaurants because I'm not allowed to (they're actually opening back up a little bit here now), but because under the present circumstances it's not safe to do so.

That argument means nothing unless you're also able to decide for yourself what to do about something "unsafe". Consent is key, and we're watching in real time as we are turned into human livestock under the care of the "state". It boils down to: "Shut up, stay in your pen". I'm not a crazy person and I agree with herd immunity and generally think we should strive for it and not fight it for the sake of the unhealthy…

> I'm not a crazy person and I agree with herd immunity

You're not crazy, but you are incorrect. Herd immunity only works for COVID if a) you can get 60-70% of people infected, and b) getting the disease confers immunity, and for a meaningful amount of time.

Getting to that 60-70% in the time frame that most people would tolerate would absolutely destroy our health care system, resulting in many more deaths (due to people being unable to get the treatment they need). Consider that hospitals in many areas were overwhelmed without most people going out and trying to get the disease.

And the immunity bit is still an open question. Many people have suffered re-infection, and it's not clear that post-infection immunity lasts more than a few months, which might not be good enough for herd immunity to stick.

The second bit is a bit of a gamble, so I'm totally open to argument there as to whether it's a gamble worth taking, but the first bit includes unacceptable outcomes. I'm not saying our current outcome is acceptable, but trading one bad thing for another isn't clearly better here.

Re: I Miss My Bar

#412

Post by [deleted] »

AndrewUnmuted wrote: post #263
solosoyokaze wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You know what's even less of a joke than COVID-19? Our histrionic, insane, and completely violent overreaction to it. Quick question: how would you propose dealing with a global pandemic? Social isolation seems like the most common sense solution, since in 2021 we know how disease is transmitted and how to deal with that.

Social isolation may be the best solution. Fine. Don't force it on us. If it's the right solution, then it will be followed. I am not going to entertain further the notion that we have locked people into their homes, given trillions of dollars to multinational corporations, and restricted the lives of everyday people, just because of a pandemic that kills less than 1% of the people infected. This is such an obvious c…

[deleted]

Re: I Miss My Bar

#413

Post by _uwiz »

kelnos wrote: post #396
Nursie wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But the dumbest thing the government could do is schedule reopenings before we know if it'll be safe to reopen. Sure. But while there is no end in sight, despair will rule. Whether it's reasonable to want a fixed timetable or not. This is also why I mentioned criteria - even if not a fixed timetable, we could at least know what sort of criteria would trigger a rule change. I.E. when we get down to X cases per day,…

> Sure. But while there is no end in sight, despair will rule. Whether it's reasonable to want a fixed timetable or not. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. After the second timeline turns out to be completely made up, people will stop trusting them and add "more distrust of government" to their despair.

So come up with a timeline that's not made up, then.

In the absence of Government leadership, I've had to do it for myself - I have a set date beyond which I will no longer follow social distancing. If I didn't have that, I'd have snapped long ago, which is strictly a worse outcome.

People individually snapping and choosing to do whatever they want is more dangerous than the alternative of the Government explicitly announcing that lockdown is a time-limited policy (and as such providing more support to the hardest-hit individuals).

Perfect is the enemy of the good.

Well, if that's even a good analogy, since lockdown is clearly nowhere near perfect, it's trading life for life.

Re: I Miss My Bar

#414

Post by kelnos »

eplanit wrote: post #246
RalfWausE wrote: post #31

I think the psychological toll of the lockdowns in different countries is highly underestimated. I myself have no real economical shortcomings due to the lockdown, but even as a person who is normaly a total loner and who can spend weeks completely alone on a excessive hiking trip i am slowly going crazy... For my wife, who is a highly social character, its even worse. And i am not the only one in this mindset... wha…

"the mood is slowly turning into some sort of "Torches and Pitchforks" way..." That mentality can actually be helpful, and provided it stays metaphorical, it is called for. We're coming up on the one year anniversary of authoritarian rules. We accepted them because we were (rightfully) scared. The facts are that it is now getting under control, and it would be healthy and cathartic to assert normalcy again. We're rig…

> We're coming up on the one year anniversary of authoritarian rules.

What exactly is "authoritarian" about them? These rules were imposed and enforced[0] under authority granted to the government through democratic processes. And if enough people don't like it, most states have recall/impeachment processes that can allow the citizenry to remove the elected officials and replace them with people who will take a different path.

The fact that none of that has happened shows that the people who truly believe the measures taken were incorrect are in the minority, likely a small vocal minority.

If you want to talk about authoritarianism, look to actual authoritarian states, where curfews, lockdowns, and quarantines were implemented, along with severe restrictions on people's movement... with no avenue for citizens to oppose these measures (and if they try, they get arrested). That is not at all what has been happening in the US, UK, and similar nations.

[0] Also consider that many of the rules imposed on individuals have essentially been voluntary and under the honor system. In most (but not all) places in the US you don't get ticketed or arrested for failing to wear a mask or socially distance, or for violating a quarantine or curfew.

Re: I Miss My Bar

#415

Post by kelnos »

steve_adams_86 wrote: post #311
ryantgtg wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel a fair amount of guilt about this. I live with my spouse and toddler, and not having a commute and spending lots of time with my daughter everyday has been great. Also, it’s now easy for me to fit in exercise every day, so I’m in the best shape I’ve been in in a while. When relatives ask how I’m doing, I immediately say, “Great!” But then I realize - oops, I should probably give a less selfish response, and ac…

In my opinion - Don’t give a less selfish response, it’s good if you’re doing great. Don’t feel ashamed or selfish for being in a healthy state. But of course, don’t hold back your sympathy either. You’re in a good place to offer support to those around you. I think this is an important facet of how humans work together, personally.

Yeah, agreed. I think it's a sort of "read the room" type situation. If it feels like the person you're talking to really needs some commiseration, downplay your good mood. Otherwise, being in a good mood yourself could help boost the other person's spirits.

Re: I Miss My Bar

#416

Post by watwut »

mStreamTeam wrote: post #281
majewsky wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We did flatten the curve. You just don't get to see the alternate reality where we didn't.

I'm not questioning the flattening the curve part. I'm saying the 2 weeks part was gaslighting. What they should have said is "one year or greater to flatten the curve." That would have been honest

Even if it would be lying, not every lying is gaslighting. Gaslighting is very specific abuse tactic.

Re: I Miss My Bar

#417

Post by watwut »

rrrrrrrrrrrryan wrote: post #362
schwartzworld wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a weird comment. You think people with families don't miss their social lives? You think it has been easy? People aren't meant to spend so much time together. Not to mention work and full-time child care don't really go together. I'd say if anything, I considered maintaining a social life to be a form of self-care, one I was already struggling to get enough of. > A month or two more and I'm going to be in the 'p…

The parent comment was wrong to assume that people with families aren't also struggling due to dampened social lives - we're all struggling. The people who are isolated by themselves are struggling much more. In prison, the worst punishment you can receive is to be taken away from the all rapists and murderers, and put in solitary confinement. Being stuck in a prison cell with a partner and family probably sounds lik…

Depends on how abusive that family is. Because in reality, being alone with internet in appartment is not comparable to prison solitary lock down.

They are massively different.

Re: I Miss My Bar

#418

Post by _uwiz »

pjc50 wrote: post #128
_uwiz wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Different countries, and different situations. Living in a big old house in the country with your family? Your life is probably basically the same as it always was. Potentially better, depending on the work situation. Okay, sure, you're not going on as many holidays, and depending on how strict the rules are where you are, dinner parties are off the cards. Living in a flat as a single person in the big exciting city?…

Yes, it's terrible. Even those of us who are "coping" aren't coping terribly well. But ironically the disconnection has made the costs of the disease invisible as well. The zoom funerals. I personally know a couple of people who are now effectively long-term disabled with respiratory issues - well enough to leave hospital, but their previous lifestyle can't come back. The death toll dwarfs every single "disaster" in…

The problem of course being that after extreme isolation and/or social breakdown, even those of us that know full well how large those numbers are start to snap.

Approximately 0.2-0.3% of the UK population has died due to coronavirus.

But my personal risk of psychosis as a result of lockdown is far higher than that, it's starting to approach 1, and when it happens, it doesn't matter if those figures are 10%.

Maybe it's just me, but I really doubt it is. Social unrest is coming if we do this for much longer, I can't see any other way.

I can't live in a world that doesn't allow me to have a friend over for a cup of tea indefinitely; compromise really needs to happen soon.

Re: I Miss My Bar

#419

Post by _uwiz »

dTal wrote: post #409
_uwiz wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UK. I don't know, indefinite lockdown. It's currently illegal to sit on a park bench. I'll do it anyway, of course, but it might not be legal. [redacted] 97 days since it was last legal for me to have a friend over for a cup of tea. You know in the movies where at some point the psychotic main character thinks "I'm not the crazy one, it must be them"? I flip flop on this every other hour.

I think we should be clear. The lockdown, in more or less its current state, is necessary. Without it we will see a spiralling death toll, the collapse of health services, and many people saddled with chronic conditions for life, yes even the "young". I personally know some. Their lifestyles will never be the same. However, it didn't have to be this way. The UK practically beat the pandemic over summer, and then snat…

Unfortunately, 300 days in, I am neither mentally capable of adhering to restrictions, nor do I have the trust any more to follow through if I did.

For me, it's the risk of death and/or a chronic condition, or the certainty of psychosis.

Hourly reminder that it's been almost 100 days since it was last legal for me to have a friend over for a cup of tea.

Best of luck, glad you're holding up well; sorry that I've failed you.

Re: I Miss My Bar

#420

Post by Nursie »

kelnos wrote: post #396
Nursie wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But the dumbest thing the government could do is schedule reopenings before we know if it'll be safe to reopen. Sure. But while there is no end in sight, despair will rule. Whether it's reasonable to want a fixed timetable or not. This is also why I mentioned criteria - even if not a fixed timetable, we could at least know what sort of criteria would trigger a rule change. I.E. when we get down to X cases per day,…

> Sure. But while there is no end in sight, despair will rule. Whether it's reasonable to want a fixed timetable or not. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. After the second timeline turns out to be completely made up, people will stop trusting them and add "more distrust of government" to their despair.

Again, I think that's why criteria need to be set out, rather than a strict timetable.
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