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Koo, India’s free-speech Twitter alternative

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Re: Koo, India’s free-speech Twitter alternative

#51

Post by krtkush »

as300 wrote: post #37

I get the impression reading articles like this that the farm bills would certainly negatively impact farmer. See this quote from the article: >The country’s capital city has seen over four months of protest after Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s government enacted agricultural laws that would adversely affect farmers across India. However, from speaking to people and watching interviews where people discuss *the actua…

From what I have read and heard[1] is that these bills are mostly good and are what the country needs. Unfortunately, the current government's track record with implementing ideas is awful. Also, the country is divided and polarized to the hilt and therefore, no one is ready to listen to each other nor trusts one another.

The Current government failed to introduce these laws in an amicable manner and their ego won't let the farmers have any other way.

[1] https://seenunseen.in/episodes/2021/2/7/episode-211-the-trag...

Re: Koo, India’s free-speech Twitter alternative

#52

Post by danans »

rayiner wrote: post #32
99_00 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does 'nationalism' concern you. Is 'nationalism' always or almost always negative?

A healthy nationalism is something countries should cultivate, in particular to unify disparate minority groups with the majority. A nationalism where a Hindu majority are stripping a Muslim minority of citizenship is probably not the good kind of nationalism.

What kind of narrative can realistically serve as a foundation for a "healthy nationalism"? Abstract inclusive concepts like "Unity in Diversity", and "human rights" seem to have less ability to unify people than exclusionary identities like religion, race, language, or tribe.

Arguably, the things that have kept those exclusionary narratives somewhat at bay in the last half century have been

(1) the memories of the previouos horrors committed in the name of nationalism (though they are fading)

(2) advances in common welfare after WWII due to the the combination of industrial/technological advances and the government policies.

For example, would we have had the civil rights movement in the US if the standard of living for many white Americans didn't dramatically increase in the decades just prior? Hard to say for sure, but I doubt it. This is why growing inequality is so dangerous - it makes people less amenable to "healthy" nationalism and far more susceptible to "unhealthy" kinds.

Re: Koo, India’s free-speech Twitter alternative

#53

Post by webmobdev »

paxys wrote: post #21

Free speech and right wing are fundamentally incompatible in India. No matter how much the founder of Koo dreams of being "apolitical", soon enough there will be a barrage of "hurting religious sentiments" charges on him or any of his users signed off by random small town judges anywhere in the country. Look at the number of activists, journalists, comedians or any other citizens behind bars today for simply liking t…

If the founder is really a businessman, and not "one of them", it shouldn't matter because he's already secured around $4 million in funding, thanks to this mass migration!

Re: Koo, India’s free-speech Twitter alternative

#54

Post by sremani »

sgift wrote: post #43
sremani wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the mother of multicultural societies - Nationalism is the fine thread that holds the thing together. India without Indian-Nationalism is warring states inviting new colonial powers for piece of action. This has been predicament of India since Alexander the Great. Strong borders externally and shallow border internally with rivers flowing in different directions created disparate cultures and population centers. I…

Funny, there is a state in Europe which had exactly the same position: We are all individual states, we fight with each other, we are weak, we should be together under strong nationalism, so we aren't victims of others anymore and so on. That country was Germany, which unified in 1871. Two world wars later and we've decided that maybe Nationalism isn't such a great thing. But you do you. Have fun.

Is Europe a country? Europe and India are different in many ways. Because Indian Nationalism dates back to 323 BC and with Mauryan Empire.

Re: Koo, India’s free-speech Twitter alternative

#55

Post by throwawaysea »

senthil_rajasek wrote: post #19
ceilingcorner wrote: post #11

The actions of Twitter regarding the last election have almost certainly guaranteed the rise of foreign social media sites. If they have no qualms restricting the speech of the president of America, clearly they’ll have no issue manipulating other governments. American social media sites really have no one to blame but themselves. I say this from a realpolitik perspective. This was clearly the obvious outcome.

Hate speech inciting violence is what was banned not any speech.

Can you prove incitement? Because Twitter certainly did not list out any convincing evidence in their blog post about the ban (https://blog.twitter.com/en_us/topics/company/2020/suspensio...), instead sheepishly offering up Trump's absence at the inauguration as evidence. It's hard to blame Trump for the Jan 6th riots when 10000 people showed up at his rally that day and only a couple hundred at most went past the capitol barricades. But simply breaching the barriers is not really a big deal - leftist activists have raided the capitol several times in the last decade as part of their own political activism. So let's focus on those who didn't just trespass but committed other crimes like theft, vandalism, and assault. I bet that number is less than 50.

So to summarize, Trump delivers a speech, he explicitly calls for a peaceful protest (visible in transcripts), and a very very small number of people break the law. That doesn't sound like incitement - it sounds to me like a few individuals made bad decisions and hold personal responsibility for their own actions and should be held accountable. But no court has found Trump guilty of incitement, and I bet none ever will - the evidence is simply not there.

As for Twitter - their power and influence is larger than most governments, and they should not be making unilateral decisions judging incitement and instituting bans of public figures. They operate the new public town square - and they need to be regulated like a public entity. or just nationalized like a utility and required to uphold the first amendment. And other leaders like Macron (https://www.axios.com/macron-social-media-bans-trump-twitter...) and Merkel (https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/11/germanys-merkel-hits-out-at-...) are absolutely correct to be alarmed at the reckless actions and immense power of American tech giants, who are ideologically very biased.

Re: Koo, India’s free-speech Twitter alternative

#56

Post by rayiner »

danans wrote: post #52
rayiner wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A healthy nationalism is something countries should cultivate, in particular to unify disparate minority groups with the majority. A nationalism where a Hindu majority are stripping a Muslim minority of citizenship is probably not the good kind of nationalism.

What kind of narrative can realistically serve as a foundation for a "healthy nationalism"? Abstract inclusive concepts like "Unity in Diversity", and "human rights" seem to have less ability to unify people than exclusionary identities like religion, race, language, or tribe. Arguably, the things that have kept those exclusionary narratives somewhat at bay in the last half century have been (1) the memories of the p…

You need to cultivate tribal ties that are real, concrete, and meaningful and to some degree exclusionary. In the United States, we venerate the Constitution. We have a pantheon that includes founding fathers, Neil Armstrong, MLK, etc. We teach our children their stories. We have shared rituals, such as being conspicuously patriotic on the Fourth of July. We have shared objects of derision, such as French “surrender monkeys.” We have a bottomless well of national pride, even when we don’t. The New York Times is ashamed of America in many instances, but will happily turn on a dime and condemn the French as racists and sexists for not conforming to American precepts of race and sex relations.

Re: Koo, India’s free-speech Twitter alternative

#57

Post by ceilingcorner »

senthil_rajasek wrote: post #31
ceilingcorner wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They’ve clearly shown themselves to have huge biases. The policy on “hacked” materials is a good example that was selectively applied only against one side. I’m really not a Trump fan and find most of the “conservative” media hilariously amateurish, but if you don’t see the obvious bias Silicon Valley has, I’m afraid you’re not paying close enough attention. From the perspective of a foreign government, why let them…

My response was directly to your quote, "restricting the speech of the president of America, clearly they’ll have no issue manipulating other governments."

As the other commenter said, Trump’s comments were confused at best, and Twitter didn’t actually cite them in their ban. They had a convoluted explanation of how his tweets were actually coded messages.

Even if they did cite his speech as a reason, looking at it as a single event is sort of missing the point. They engaged in similar behavior for years beforehand.

Re: Koo, India’s free-speech Twitter alternative

#58

Post by ceilingcorner »

throwawaysea wrote: post #55
senthil_rajasek wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hate speech inciting violence is what was banned not any speech.

Can you prove incitement? Because Twitter certainly did not list out any convincing evidence in their blog post about the ban ( https://blog.twitter.com/en_us/topics/company/2020/suspensio... ), instead sheepishly offering up Trump's absence at the inauguration as evidence. It's hard to blame Trump for the Jan 6th riots when 10000 people showed up at his rally that day and only a couple hundred at most went past the…

Whew, that has to be the most snarky, insecure corporate press release I’ve ever seen. Bizarre.

Re: Koo, India’s free-speech Twitter alternative

#59

Post by bhupy »

rayiner wrote: post #56
danans wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What kind of narrative can realistically serve as a foundation for a "healthy nationalism"? Abstract inclusive concepts like "Unity in Diversity", and "human rights" seem to have less ability to unify people than exclusionary identities like religion, race, language, or tribe. Arguably, the things that have kept those exclusionary narratives somewhat at bay in the last half century have been (1) the memories of the p…

You need to cultivate tribal ties that are real, concrete, and meaningful and to some degree exclusionary. In the United States, we venerate the Constitution. We have a pantheon that includes founding fathers, Neil Armstrong, MLK, etc. We teach our children their stories. We have shared rituals, such as being conspicuously patriotic on the Fourth of July. We have shared objects of derision, such as French “surrender…

Until the mid-2010's the US's creedal flavor of "nationalism" was arguably the most principles-based in the world; something I take great pride in as a brown American son of immigrants. It was a paragon of what nationalism should look like.

Unfortunately, in 2021, we've lost that collective nationalism, and I'm not sure we're better off for it.

Re: Koo, India’s free-speech Twitter alternative

#60

Post by lordleft »

sremani wrote: post #34
lordleft wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'nationalism' is typically distinguished from patriotism; the latter is a love of country -- the former is the conviction that one's country is better than other countries, on the basis of a rank tribalism.

In the mother of multicultural societies - Nationalism is the fine thread that holds the thing together. India without Indian-Nationalism is warring states inviting new colonial powers for piece of action. This has been predicament of India since Alexander the Great. Strong borders externally and shallow border internally with rivers flowing in different directions created disparate cultures and population centers. I…

It is one thing to argue for an Indian National identity -- I think that's immensely useful and agree that it acts as a thread that can unify diverse polities and cultures.

The problem is that the BJP is advancing a conception of Indian National Identity that flattens distinctions and is predicated on a caricature of Indian minorities. Hindutva sees Muslims, Christians and others as second-class citizens -- it is a nationalism that comes at the expense of diversity, and sometimes at the expense of the safety of Indian minority communities, free expression & speech, and democratic norms.

Creating an identity from a subcontinent filled with dozens (if not thousands) of languages and ethnic groups is an immense challenge, but the project of Hindutva is an unbelievably blunt attempt to resolve this tension.

I should add that I am an Indian American, and a St. Thomas Christian from Kerala. My community is ancient, thoroughly Indian, and yet is an affront to Indian Nationalism as conceived by the Hindu Nationalist right.

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