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Uber drivers are workers not self employed, Supreme Court rules

bbc.co.uk

221–230 of 387 posts

Re: Uber drivers are workers not self employed, Supreme Court rules

#221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I assume this will cause Deliveroo to either increase fees or reduce service which may inspire more restuarants to hire their own delivery people again. Before Deliveroo (and similar services) restaurants (in UK/Europe since you discuss London) did not offer delivery at all. Handling the whole order (which these days means online/through an app) and delivery in-house is costly and restaurants use Deliveroo because…

> Before Deliveroo (and similar services) restaurants did not offer delivery at all. This is far from universally true, especially Asian takeaways typically hired their own driver, but the practice was also commonplace for many actual restaurants too

We live in a few miles from the nearest town, and there's no Deliveroo, Just Eat etc here.

Many of the local restaurants will deliver

Re: Uber drivers are workers not self employed, Supreme Court rules

#222
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>1. Uber set the fare which meant that they dictated how much drivers could earn 2. Uber set the contract terms and drivers had no say in them 3. Request for rides is constrained by Uber who can penalise drivers if they reject too many rides 4. Uber monitors a driver's service through the star rating and has the capacity to terminate the relationship if after repeated warnings this does not improve I sure hope they'l…

We don't have the (corrupt and failed) medallion system in the UK and we certainly don't have "city" managed "taxi" drivers. This is the UK supreme court (the one where the judges have real world experience)

London famously has one of the strictest requirements for licensing taxi drivers, and the rest of the Uk seems to have city managed licenses as well.

Re: Uber drivers are workers not self employed, Supreme Court rules

#223
post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of IT contracting firms in the UK have in recent years had to drastically change their practices exactly because ensuring a contract does not create a relationship that would be deemed to be an employment relationship has gotten progressively harder, exactly because it was being massively abused, so this is a very poor argument in the UK. The lack of ability to negotiate prices - be it with a middleman or the a…

I don't understand what do you mean. Does the middleman have to accept whatever I say, or how does this negotiation work? Either we agree, or we don't, I don't see any difference between my IT contracting negotiation and using Uber. One would say that employment is hourly/daily/monthly/yearly based payment - so IT contracting would fall into that, but I don't see how Uber's per-ride rating would fit there. That the p…

There needs to be an actual ability to negotiate. If they say no, so be it, but Uber does not provide a mechanism for drivers to give a counter-offer, so there is no negotiation.

For your comparison to contracting, I've contracted quite a lot, and I have always had the ability to state my rate, and the client have had the ability to state theirs, and we arrive at something that may be mine, or theirs or something in between, but there has always been actual discussion.

With Uber you're presented with a price, and you take it or leave it, and if you leave it Uber never comes back with a higher price - on the contrary, if you keep leaving it they may penalise you.

That alone would not necessarily have caused it to be deemed employment, but combined with the other element that all points to drivers having very little control demonstrates that this is not a contract entered into by equals, but one were drivers are subservient, and that points very strongly to an employee relationship under UK law.

That there may be similar elements in your IT contracting does not mean Uber drivers are not employees, but that you might be.

E.g. when I did contracting:

* I always negotiated a rate, whether or not there was a middleman in the process.

* There was always a defined end to the contract (but it could be extended)

* I had marketing costs.

* I paid for my own equipment, and the costs were amortised over my contracts.

* I had more than one client at a time a lot of the time, but certainly more than one per year.

* I decided when I worked, and how to do the work, and where to work and it was not ordinarily in their offices.

Each one of those pointed towards me being a genuine contractor outside of IR35. Each one of them going the other way would not individually mean I was suddenly inside IR35 or in a deemed employment, but each additional one would increase the likelihood the relationship is an employment relationship.

EDIT: To make it clear, IR35 is the tax treatment only, but it's often a useful proxy to indicate whether or not you have a claim to be an employee, because the tests that indicate if you're within IR35 are much the same things a court or tribunal would consider if you were to ask them to rule on whether or not you're an employee.

EDIT2: Also, if you're a contractor in the UK but not resident that points to a short term contract. That does suggest you'd not be considered an employee, certainly.

Re: Uber drivers are workers not self employed, Supreme Court rules

#224
post #10

Really interested to see what this does to Deliveroo. I live in central London on a pretty busy street and it's really wild how many Deliveroo drivers there are. In front of most of the popular takeaway restaurants there are 3-5 drivers waiting at any given time. The increase in delivery and decrease in normal foot traffic during the pandemic has made this really stick out. Deliveroo already totally robs these restau…

"Your margin is my opportunity" - J. Bezos

Re: Uber drivers are workers not self employed, Supreme Court rules

#225
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel really bad for small restaurant owners. These large delivery companies totally take over their internet marketing too, registering a domain like ' - .com' and when you go to that website, you really have to pay attention to see that this is not the 'official' restaurant website and if you order through there, it's costing the restaurant a lot of money that they wouldn't miss out on if you'd order through their…

A customer won't order through 3rd party app if the restaurant doesn't partner to sell through them. Same case for internet marketing. What you should feel bad about are the excessive commission fees charged by those delivery apps.

This is untrue. A few months ago there was an article on the front page about a restaurant serving pizza that had been auto-listed by, IIRC, Deliveroo - which had put a menu online with marked-up prices and was allowing users to place orders.

The restaurant owner even discovered that, because of some inconsistency between his prices and the third-party ones, he could cause the delivering company to pay him by simply placing orders to himself.

Re: Uber drivers are workers not self employed, Supreme Court rules

#226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"passing off" is a common law tort. If there's confusion, it could well fall under that. There's also a very large body of trademark specific law which may specifically address this. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passing_off

> The law of passing off prevents one trader from misrepresenting goods or services as being the goods and services of another, and also prevents a trader from holding out his or her goods or services as having some association or connection with another when this is not true. But the food isn't being misrepresented! It is the food of the restaurant. Passing off means pretending the product is something it isn't. Tha…

That is one circumstance covered but not the only one.

I'm not under a mistaken understanding. I'm explicitly saying that you might not have to misrepresent the food itself: if you insert yourself as an intermediary but claim to be the underlying provider, there's potential for confusion and damage to the goodwill of the underlying provider, and that is what passing off fundamentally protects against.

I don't know if it would fly, but you asked and that's a place a case might be found.

The broader point here: it's one thing to advertise selling someone else's product. It's another to _pretend to be them_.

Re: Uber drivers are workers not self employed, Supreme Court rules

#227
post #9

They so clueless, they think that companies have a money tree and evil CEO just refuse to give them a piece of money. Uber it's an unprofitable company and workers demand more benefits, from the company that can't pay than current salary without external investments. "If we had these rights today, those drivers could at least earn a minimum wage to live on". No, you will be fired.

Take away the gig economy part from Uber and it becomes a regular taxi market, an industry that has been around for a hundred years already, with all the checks and balances installed already (from driver and passenger rights to ride fares to maximum amount of drivers allowed to operate in a certain area to avoid oversaturating the market). And in that environment it is not viable. Or, not viable to SF standards, in…

Wasn’t the gig economy part of regular cab driving? Sure they had medallion requirements, but cab drivers in US cities always worked whenever they wanted (usually when it was busy).

Re: Uber drivers are workers not self employed, Supreme Court rules

#228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they did then what do they think is the infraction or offence that is being committed? They're being objectionable by committing or infracting... what? What law or regulation would they be breaking?

"passing off" is a common law tort. If there's confusion, it could well fall under that. There's also a very large body of trademark specific law which may specifically address this. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passing_off

My definitely-not-a-lawyer reading of this even seems like there’s a decent case to be made, by the definitely-not-legally-exhaustive “required elements” there. The goodwill is their reputation, misrepresentation is obvious, and damage to their brand would be negative reviews (“food was cold, would not buy again!”) on Google or similar sites.

Re: Uber drivers are workers not self employed, Supreme Court rules

#229
post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lots of businesses aren't viable due to the costs of business being greater than the price people would be willing to pay. Pay isn't being detached from the value of the worker, what's being said is that if you're unable to produce enough value from the worker in order to pay them well enough to live then your business isn't viable. Gig economy companies like Deliveroo are particularly hostile to their labour force.…

I mean, I don't really see where the harm to the worker is by offering them the option.

The same could be said for child labour or health and safety regulation. If a child is desperate enough to work why shouldn't we let them? Why don't we allow workers to choose to work for companies that put their wellbeing at risk?

The reason is that it ends up not being a choice of the worker at all, incentives align in such a way that these are no longer an "option" but instead a replacement of existing work/choice that had much better outcomes for the worker than the replacement. A great example of this would be "voluntary" exemptions from overtime protections in the UK. There is a default limit on the maximum amount of overtime most workers can undertake. The employee can optionally agree to lift this limit. In practice every employee is given a form to sign along with their employment contract that agrees to lift this limit. It no longer becomes a choice of the worker but one of management.

The same thing happened with "zero hours" contracts. Theoretically they allow employees to be more flexible in how much they work. In reality they remove the ability for workers to plan time or budget due to uncertainty in how often and when management decides they will be working. The key thing is that this replaced the existing, more reliable, system of work not because employees chose it as an option, but because employers unilaterally switched to it.

I'd argue further that the gig economy itself is both a cause and a symptom of economic instability in the lower working class. It emerged from the inability of this group to find to find enough stable, well paying work. It accelerates that economic instability by forcing workers into an even more precarious position. With a zero hours contract the economic uncertainty came from the fact that you didn't know when you'd be working. With gig work you know when you'll be working but you won't know what you'll be paid. This is a fundamental shift in the social contract of employment, in that the risk of loss is born by the employer and in exchange the employer keeps any profit. In the gig economy the employer shifts that burden onto the employees without a corresponding shift in control/profit.

Re: Uber drivers are workers not self employed, Supreme Court rules

#230
post #6

The court made very specific arguments: 1. Uber set the fare which meant that they dictated how much drivers could earn 2. Uber set the contract terms and drivers had no say in them 3. Request for rides is constrained by Uber who can penalise drivers if they reject too many rides 4. Uber monitors a driver's service through the star rating and has the capacity to terminate the relationship if after repeated warnings t…

These 4 points are all pretty critical to Uber's business though.

1. If the drivers set the fair, then customers have no idea what a trip will cost or if uber shows the drivers fair then why would the customer not always choose the cheapest causing a rush to the the bottom for pricing.

2. This one is open ended and I am not knowledgeable enough to comment on it.

3. If a driver is constantly rejecting rides this is going to affect the algorithm and negatively affect customers. You cant be on the clock and open to rides but consistently reject them when they are assigned.

4. It just makes sense to be able to let poor performers go.

From the article "This is a win-win-win for drivers, passengers and cities. It means Uber now has the correct economic incentives not to oversupply the market with too many vehicles and too many drivers", Mr Aslam, president of the App Drivers & Couriers Union

What he is saying but maybe does not realize is that this is actually the death of the gig economy at least as it relates to Uber. If there is now a forced reduction in drivers, its a regression to taxi cabs and it reduces the ability of someone to just grab a quick shift here and there and reduces Uber's incentive to allow them too.

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