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Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

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Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#831
post #596

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a user, I'm free to buy Android if I want to. I buy iPhones specifically because software developers are forced to go through Apple's more strict guidelines (see the Apple/Facebook fight for a recent example of why I personally like it). I can trust the software I use much more on Apple's platform. I want to have the freedom to buy and use such a platform, and Apple wants the freedom to sell and maintain such a pl…

> The entire process falls apart if Apple is forced to allow other App Stores. Why? You have the choice of not using other App Stores. Just like you have the choice to not use Android, so therefore it doesn't effect you.

But it does affect me. Apple's "walled garden" approach only works if they are able to actually have walls and force companies to abide by their rules. Removing those restrictions removes any leverage Apple (and by extension consumers like me) have over other large companies. For example, Netflix could say "you have to use this other App Store" and many people would convert. It's essentially a tragedy of the commons.

Sure, it may not be fair to these large corporations, but it's currently a great situation for consumers. Everybody is free to either go more laissez-faire (Android) or more walled garden (iOS). I don't think the courts should ruin that.

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#832

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a way, the Apple fans don't matter. The DOJ can fix this single-handedly and force Apple to open up. We need to speak up now more than ever. The heat against Apple is turning up, and with all this pressure and focus we can frame our argument with crystal clarity and make it LOUD . Tim Sweeny, DHH, and plenty of other luminaries are carrying this argument forward. We need to join them in unison.

Why, though? Why does everything need to become like Android? Why can’t Apple and its users do their own thing? What’s with this Borg mentality HN has when it comes to Apple? Assimilate or perish. I genuinely think it’s deep seated envy, frankly.

> Why does everything need to become like Android?

It's not like Android. It's like computers before iPhone.

> Why can’t Apple and its users do their own thing?

Because if I want my startup to succeed, I have to have an iPhone app.

Apple makes this hostile to everyone that isn't them. You need design approval to push updates, you can't deploy when you want. You have to pay the 30% tax and use Apple payment rails. You have to support Apple sign-in, which means you can never form a customer relationship. (It's fine for Apple to have that relationship, but not anyone else.)

Taking advantage of the rise of the internet, Apple has used their incredible market position to elbow their way into every aspect of business. If you want to reach "their" customers, you have to play by the arbitrary rules they set. Rules that defend their market position and extract tax.

> What’s with this Borg mentality HN has when it comes to Apple?

What’s with this Borg mentality HN has when it comes to Apple fans?

> Assimilate or perish.

Assimilate or perish, the Apple fans tell other businesses and entrepreneurs.

> I genuinely think it’s deep seated envy, frankly.

It's anger that we're being abused by a gorilla-sized mobster and that nothing has been done to protect us.

It's anger that the open computing and world wide web of the 90s and 2000s has been grifted and coopted by Google and Apple. That computing has been redefined as something proprietary. They've taken advantage of open source and open Internet, and leveraged that to capture and control the market. Software freedoms that enabled their rise are now dying because of these companies. They're making it harder for us to succeed and taking more of the pie for themselves. They got theirs, and now they're putting it under lock and key.

Call it envy all you want. It's not fair for computing to be owned by the incumbents.

Would you still have this opinion if history had been different and Microsoft's Windows Phone had taken the place of the iPhone? Would you be happy with the Windows Store, Microsoft's 30% fee, Microsoft's design guidelines, etc?

Replace everything Apple you own with Microsoft, couple it with the same proprietary stance, and tell me you'd be happy.

Take that thought process one step further and disregard the company altogether. It doesn't matter who is doing these things. Apple is immaterial. The behavior is bad and it shouldn't be allowed.

This is why the DOJ hammered Microsoft -- rightly so -- and will do the same to Apple.

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#833

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except as soon as it becomes a remotely feasible action (with simple instructions) for the general consumer, a bunch of businesses will start requiring their users to disable "default Grandma mode". Imagine onboarding for Netflix including a pleasantly designed screen saying "Before you can use Netflix, you must Enable Third-party Stores. Go to Settings > Privacy..." If that comes to pass, there will be no highly-gua…

> the market has spoken. And it's happy. When has the market been given a choice? App Stores have been the only way to get software on iPhones since they were first released. I can't even install an alternative OS on my iPhone, and jailbreaking seems to have become less accessible now too. How do we know what experience is more competitive if competition isn't allowed to blossom? Maybe the market would value an alter…

When has the market been given a choice?

The choice now is between Apple and Android ecosystems. The best Android phones have comparable hardware to the iPhone, so people are choosing based on software, price, and status.

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#834

It feels a bit hypocritical when Apple laughs at FB for complaining about their new tracking pop-up yet when the shoe's on the other foot and Apple may actually have to compete on its own platform they double down and defend their right to be judge, jury and executioner. Apple competing with third party app stores on iOS is going to be amazing. No computer platform should be allowed to prevent sideloading or other st…

The fact that you called it sideloading just shows how successful Apple has been in warping people's perception of it over the years. Installing the software you want on your compute device isn't sideloading. Its just installing software. Apple is aberration here not all of the users who just expect to actually own the products they buy.

There is a device that lets you install your own apps (more or less), and it is an Android device. No-one is forcing you to buy an Apple device nor does Apple even have a monopoly in marketshare of mobile devices.

Some of the security and excellent user experience in fact comes from the enforcing and prevention of arbitrary third party apps. You can't have your cake and eat it too. If you don't want that experience go get an Android (many do, and are happy with it, but forcing Apple to become Android is nonsensical).

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#835
post #773
post #642

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not insinuating a falsehood. TenCent owns 40% of Epic’s stock, has a seat in the board, and controls access to much more of epic’s revenue than Apple does. TenCent can absolutely dictate a policy in relation to Apple to Epic if they so choose. China absolutely has interests in seeing a less powerful Apple, for numerous reasons. Does this mean the Chinese government is driving this policy? Of course we don’t know.…

> TenCent can absolutely dictate a policy 40% ownership does not dictate anything. They can make a stern request and threaten with some leverage. Ultimately it still won't be TenCent's decision.

You ignored this part:

> controls access to much more of epic’s revenue than Apple does.

They can dictate a policy.

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#836

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sideloading is Android terminology, isn't it? What does that have to do with Apple?

Nothing, this is a religious crusade, and facts don’t matter. Apple needs to be tarred and feathered for its sins of taking a different path to the rest of the industry.

> sins of taking a different path to the rest of the industry

s/taking a different path.*/creating a serfdom.

s/taking a different path.*/behaving like John Deere.

s/taking a different path.*/making Richard Stallman cry.

s/taking a different path.*/taxation without representation.

s/taking a different path.*/handicapping every platform (web, flash, etc) but theirs, capturing 50% of Americans, making iPhone their only computer, then forcing every single other company to wear a chicken suit.

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#837

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the market has spoken. And it's happy. When has the market been given a choice? App Stores have been the only way to get software on iPhones since they were first released. I can't even install an alternative OS on my iPhone, and jailbreaking seems to have become less accessible now too. How do we know what experience is more competitive if competition isn't allowed to blossom? Maybe the market would value an alter…

When has the market been given a choice? The choice now is between Apple and Android ecosystems. The best Android phones have comparable hardware to the iPhone, so people are choosing based on software, price, and status.

Why not force Apple to behave ethically, on top of it? Give the people even more choice! Clearly there are strong arguments for the iphone if people are willing to give up software freedom to own one. As an Android user I'd love to hop over and find out what the buzz is about. But of course, I can't justify buying a computer that I can't even install software of my choice on.

This is a great place for regulatory intervention to act for the good of the people. I don't really care about the good of Apple. It is the world's most highly valued company, right? It'll be fine.

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#838

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I honestly don't want to tinker with my phone. So don't? People seem to have the idea that in order to use Android effectively you have to rebuild the kernel every week. If you treat a Pixel like an iPhone, it works like an iPhone.

No, it really doesn’t, except if looked through the most superficial lens.

Exactly. It works better.

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#839

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why, though? Why does everything need to become like Android? Why can’t Apple and its users do their own thing? What’s with this Borg mentality HN has when it comes to Apple? Assimilate or perish. I genuinely think it’s deep seated envy, frankly.

> Why does everything need to become like Android? It's not like Android. It's like computers before iPhone . > Why can’t Apple and its users do their own thing? Because if I want my startup to succeed, I have to have an iPhone app. Apple makes this hostile to everyone that isn't them. You need design approval to push updates, you can't deploy when you want. You have to pay the 30% tax and use Apple payment rails. Yo…

Oh God, the same stupid arguments once again. Always the comparisons to Microsoft and/or the Mafia.

I don’t care that you think you need Apple users to get your startup off the ground. Apple and its users owe you nothing. You do not have some divine right to distribute whatever software you want to these users.

> Would you be happy with the Windows Store, Microsoft's 30% fee, Microsoft's design guidelines, etc?

Yes.

Because alternatives, including more open ones, exist. And they have a higher (almost dominant) market presence. Frankly, this should be the end of this discussion, but you guys are on a religious crusade.

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#840

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing, this is a religious crusade, and facts don’t matter. Apple needs to be tarred and feathered for its sins of taking a different path to the rest of the industry.

> sins of taking a different path to the rest of the industry s/taking a different path.*/creating a serfdom. s/taking a different path.*/behaving like John Deere. s/taking a different path.*/making Richard Stallman cry. s/taking a different path.*/taxation without representation. s/taking a different path.*/handicapping every platform (web, flash, etc) but theirs, capturing 50% of Americans, making iPhone their only…

Utter nonsense.

This is the religious programming in all its glory. Brought to you by the same people that call Apple users sheep.

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