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Why did I leave Google or, why did I stay so long?

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Re: Why did I leave Google or, why did I stay so long?

#651

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe to some extent, but I’m not certain. If you are passionate about what you do, then you are probably not enjoying the job which shifted into not being a fit for your skill set, so the need to find someone else can be a mutual/positive conversation. It’s also really fraught with ego and self-worth landmines so it doesn’t always go that way.

There's a significant difference between being passionate about what you do and being passionate about the company/mission. A software developer might care immensely about the craft of software and the intricacies of tooling, programming languages, etc. but none at all about the company or mission, or a developer might care only about the company and view the craft of software as just the thing that happens to be mos…

> There's a significant difference between being passionate about what you do and being passionate about the company/mission.

Absolutely.

> I suspect employers would like both, but would prefer to subordinate the former to the latter

I think this depends on the company - size in particular seems very relevant. A lot of startups want their hires to be "mission driven", i.e. passionate about the company's objectives. This is more important if (like most startups) you're hoping for your hires to be generalists, and figure things out as they go along. In this scenario you can have meta-level "passionate about what you do" regardless of what the object-level task is (or more realistically, within a broad range of tasks that fall within your area of competence-but-not-expertise). But that's not as important as passion for the mission, and I do wonder if "passionate for whatever thing you're working on" is an oxymoron. In this situation I think your point is correct, the small companies want passion about the mission.

One of the complaints in the OP was that Google employees are _not_ (as) mission-driven. My model here would be that at a big company, you're looking for a bunch of highly-specialized individuals that are effectively PhD-level experts in their field (not saying you completely discard/devalue generalists, but the trend is towards more specialists as you get bigger since you have more tasks that can actually keep a specialist busy full-time). For hiring/motivating specialists, you need to select for people that are passionate about the craft, not necessarily the mission. Not to mention if I understand correctly at the lower levels at least you tend to apply to a broad "Software engineer" role and get slotted in to a team, rather than applying specifically for a role in a specific subject area. I'm guessing the median Googler is substantially less mission-oriented than the median 10-person-startup engineer. Indeed to the extent that your mission is "boring" (I don't know many people that are excited by selling ads, for example) I suspect you want to actively select for people that are passionate about the craft, not the mission; these people will be happy with any mission, as long as they get to craft well. So for large companies I think I disagree with your theory about preferences between the two passions.

Note with all of this -- you can still be a primarily mission-based small/growth startup, and have a situation where a skill mismatch emerges, and you need to replace someone. I don't think it's hypocritical to want your employees to be passionate about the mission, while also having the skills required to do the job, and recognize that sometimes your passionate and mission-driven employee is just not the right person for the role they are currently in.

> And that's a pretty big ask if as an employer you also want the ability to discard people who are no longer good skill fits for the company.

Perhaps there is some hypocrisy if you are really encouraging passion about _the company_, and selling the "we are a family" story, and then turn around and terminate someone because you pivoted and no longer need them. I know some startups do this and it's a bit awkward. Your company may be close, but you're not a family. But I don't think "hires mission driven people" and "fires fast if there's a lack of fit" are mutually incompatible asks/expectations in general.

Re: Why did I leave Google or, why did I stay so long?

#652

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nobody at Google has a need to raise a ticket with some ops group in Bengaluru to partition a Kafka topic, renew a certificate, bridge two VPCs, or any of that type of thing. Except when your team wanted to initially onboard with GOOPS and your request sat in Buganizer for 2 weeks waiting for someone to triage. Uh oh — we're turning down this service next quarter, you will need to go start this onboarding process a…

Sure, things get hairy when you go off the beaten path, but day-to-day infrastructure is not the issue. As a user of Google products I don't care as much about developer velocity as I do them shipping swiss cheese products security-wise. If I have to wait a few months more for some new feature, I'll take that trade-off.

Right, the slothful approval process for log retention and access is a feature, not a bug. It's part of the reason why Google's technical privacy story is incomparable.

Re: Why did I leave Google or, why did I stay so long?

#653

9 years @ Google, and I too came from a company acquired by Google. (In my case, Google did not keep our product or tech stack around, so.) And yes, I can say many Googlers are entitled. It's a fair descriptor. And the pace of work is slower than a startup. In general. And I too have many criticisms of Google. But. Google has entirely different revenue constraints. It can afford an entirely different way of working.…

I've worked at 8 different companies and none of them could even hold a candle to Google's pace of work. Everything just works. The quota system works, the identity and authorization system works, observability works, the build and release system works. You can be a productive engineer at Google on day 2 if you read the codelabs on day 1. Nobody at Google has ever needed to have their manager email the Jira admin to…

All the reasons you've given for fast pace are tech reasons and I don't think anyone is arguing with that. The author mostly discussed how people reasons is why the pace is slowed down and that's something that's a lot more prevalent at big corporations than at startups.

Re: Why did I leave Google or, why did I stay so long?

#654
post #173
post #99

This is an amazing post - it describes exactly how bad manager looks like and what kind of expectations does he have from his employees. No emergency PTO (despite being a benefit), ability to just get rid of people who don't suit him, cursing at people, not having a proper work/life balance. It just keeps on giving. And all for what? A mapping application having features which really don't save lives 99% of the time.

I agree with all of that except the swearing part. Is swearing in work a big deal in US? I'm Scottish (even worse Glaswegian) so perhaps have a skewed view.

US is a far more religious society. At least my religion expressly forbids cursing and swearing. I still kind of have a visible reaction when people curse, but I think it makes people regard me poorly, so I am trying to correct it.

Re: Why did I leave Google or, why did I stay so long?

#655
When highly compensated people moan about the less compensated people not putting in the same kind of hours I wonder what kind of blinders they have on. Anyone who has even a little bit of smarts realizes that they generally shouldn't work as hard as their boss, because they will not be compensated the same.

Early on in my career I believed the mantra that managers shoulder more risk, so that is why they deserve higher compensation. But in my 30 year career I have never seen anyone in my management chain face legal trouble. At most managers were fired, same as regular employees.

Very high level position hiring tends to be slower than lower positions, so you could argue that that is the reason the VP salary should be higher. But the compensation is so out of whack that this doesn't hold water either. Companies could save a lot of money if they paid employees more uniform compensation, and when firing someone, the compensation package would be proportional to how long a person in that position typically takes to find the next job. So maybe an engineer would get a month, and a VP 6 months equivalent of salary.

Re: Why did I leave Google or, why did I stay so long?

#656
I have to wonder who is more entitled, the person who expects to do the 11AM yoga class, or the person who expects his employees' weekend time?

To me, the yoga class example is the kind that people can see and point judging fingers at (i.e. images of youthful people in yoga clothes stretching in a nicely lit yoga studio).

Expecting your employees to work weekends to meet your vision (especially if without a clear reward system for doing so) sounds like a much more profound form of entitlement.

Disclosure: Long time Googler, and my experience with managers at Google has rarely been like the author of the article. When it has, I've voted with my feet and changed projects, or avoided projects like that altogether.

Re: Why did I leave Google or, why did I stay so long?

#657

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've worked at 8 different companies and none of them could even hold a candle to Google's pace of work. Everything just works. The quota system works, the identity and authorization system works, observability works, the build and release system works. You can be a productive engineer at Google on day 2 if you read the codelabs on day 1. Nobody at Google has ever needed to have their manager email the Jira admin to…

> Nobody at Google has a need to raise a ticket with some ops group in Bengaluru to partition a Kafka topic, renew a certificate, bridge two VPCs, or any of that type of thing. Except when your team wanted to initially onboard with GOOPS and your request sat in Buganizer for 2 weeks waiting for someone to triage. Uh oh — we're turning down this service next quarter, you will need to go start this onboarding process a…

That was some T7-9 whining right there. Do you think it's easier to get unplanned compute capacity at some other company?

Re: Why did I leave Google or, why did I stay so long?

#658
Thanks for sharing this. It correlates with what I've (subjectively) experienced from the outside, i.e. my user experience across Google's products has steadily deteriorated over the last decade.

This quote really hit home:

at the end of every day, I always ask myself "what did I do for our users today". This simple exercise helps keep priorities straight. When I found myself avoiding this question because I was embarrassed by the answer, I knew my time was up.

Re: Why did I leave Google or, why did I stay so long?

#659
post #552

This mention of "yoga at 11am" seems to be rubbing some folks the wrong way, but what if it was "lunch for an hour at 11am"? In all the jobs I've held (including now) where working hours are not dictated by external forces, such as customer service expectations, our teams make sure we get in our hours and are more or less available during a reasonable window, say 8am-5/6pm. It is pretty much understood that there wil…

And I had fellow googles spend all their day between PlayStation, gym, restaurants, cafe's, hairdresser etc... without getting any work done.

The actual problem is not them doing those things, the problem is them not doing their job

That's where the demands should lie, not on "bottoms on seats"

Re: Why did I leave Google or, why did I stay so long?

#660

> When COVID hit and we moved to work from home - a huge amount of complaints began around why cant employees expense food since they are not in the office. While most "real" people were worried about keeping their jobs or finding one, many employees were complaining about expensing their food on top of their salaries/stocks/bonuses. This entitlement continued everywhere - while Google is BY FAR the most employee cen…

As much as I felt this guy had some unreasonable thoughts (how hard is it to not swear at work?), This really hit me. Many of tech employees are entitled, same with University students. I don't know why people are like this but it always rubs me wrong.
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