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Why did I leave Google or, why did I stay so long?

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Re: Why did I leave Google or, why did I stay so long?

#631
post #547

9 years @ Google, and I too came from a company acquired by Google. (In my case, Google did not keep our product or tech stack around, so.) And yes, I can say many Googlers are entitled. It's a fair descriptor. And the pace of work is slower than a startup. In general. And I too have many criticisms of Google. But. Google has entirely different revenue constraints. It can afford an entirely different way of working.…

The problem is that it can hurt your career, especially if you've never worked anywhere else. (random guess: somewhere between 15% and 30% of the workforce falls in that category) You can learn the wrong lessons: you learn how to go up for promotion rather than build things that work for users. In the last 10 years it's become extremely common at Google do work that is simply thrown away (because of issues above your…

Yes, well, I agree with all those criticisms. It's been 9 years of frustration for me, here at Google. But that's not what my comment was about. I took issue with his griping that he couldn't hire and fire and drive a meat grinder. To me that's an entirely other kind of dysfunction...

Perf at Google is broken. But I think it's endemic to large companies, probably. I only worked at smaller ones before. I worked for some that were meat grinders, and others that were better.

Re: Why did I leave Google or, why did I stay so long?

#632

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honest question from an eng working the last few decades at a FAANG and finding themselves burnt out to the point of panic attacks some mornings (e.g. "can I keep going at this pressure"; which has me laughing at least a little about the "FAANG is easy" sentiment elsewhere in the thread) Where? How do I find jobs like this? I get what the sister comment points out about long-term stagnation, but at the same time, I c…

There are plenty of high-revenue companies looking for people with prestigious backgrounds in a non-explicitly-called-that-way advisory role. It is not difficult to find jobs like those in general, but IMO most FAANG people lack the finesse needed to understand how to position themselves and understand what other people want, which, most of the time, are not the coding skills. Panic attacks are brutal and getting emp…

Very true on the last part. There are some quotes I'd love to share from mentors in the space but that would ID me too tightly.

Would you say that any particular background and skill set or credentials/laurels (publishing? writing? speaking? management? management at a certain level?) sets you up most appropriately for getting this sort of role? Basically, how do I take any actionable steps to find those positions or move in that direction.

Re: Why did I leave Google or, why did I stay so long?

#633

I can certainly see a lot of parallels with Oculus / Facebook. Perhaps unusually, I actually wanted FB to impress itself more strongly on Oculus post acquisition because, frankly, Oculus was a bit of a mess. Instead, Oculus was given an enormous amount of freedom for many years. Personally, nobody ever told me what to do, even though I was willing to "shut up and soldier" if necessary -- they bought that capability!…

Along the lines of leaving oculus/fb, can we ask what would have to happen for you to stop using an oculus/fb product?

Re: Why did I leave Google or, why did I stay so long?

#634
post #441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hard to align that perspective with his acknowledgement that Waze was allowed to operate independently, and the fact that Waze has been launching lots of new features for the last few years.

Straight from the horse's mouth: >All of our growth at Waze post acquisition was from work we did, not support from the mothership. Looking back, we could have probably grown faster and much more efficiently had we stayed independent. He also details the constraints and additional burdens imposed by corporate as well the overall lack of support.

In that section of the article, he was talking about marketing and partnership limitations that are imposed by being a part of a larger conglomerate. This has little to do with feature development.

Re: Why did I leave Google or, why did I stay so long?

#635
post #441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hard to align that perspective with his acknowledgement that Waze was allowed to operate independently, and the fact that Waze has been launching lots of new features for the last few years.

Straight from the horse's mouth: >All of our growth at Waze post acquisition was from work we did, not support from the mothership. Looking back, we could have probably grown faster and much more efficiently had we stayed independent. He also details the constraints and additional burdens imposed by corporate as well the overall lack of support.

That doesn't support any claims of "putting them out to pasture". Is Microsoft "putting Github out to pasture" by taking a hands off approach and letting them keep doing their own thing?

Re: Why did I leave Google or, why did I stay so long?

#636

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't get complacent. I've been where you are, and when the party is over you're going to have a hell of a hangover unless you can ride that job to retirement. Relearning how to compete after a few years of coasting is brutal. I was just past 40 when my gravy train derailed. The slack years were fun but they went by fast. Compensation for a job is about more than money. It's about where you end up as a person when th…

That's a good point and that's the drop of fear climbing making his way up to my brain. But I interview around, I got some offers that I have declined so far and I do some work, just a few hours a week. You wrote: "Compensation for a job is about more than money. It's about where you end up as a person when the job is over.". It sounds good in theory, but in practice? Should I switch job, maybe/likely accepting less…

> I can move to Tulum for 3 months and get ready for interviews, no?

I've worked with plenty of sysadmins who suddenly had no choice but to become software engineers. That learning is brutal for some of them–years long process, maybe never. 3 months may not be enough if you coast for long enough.

Re: Why did I leave Google or, why did I stay so long?

#637

9 years @ Google, and I too came from a company acquired by Google. (In my case, Google did not keep our product or tech stack around, so.) And yes, I can say many Googlers are entitled. It's a fair descriptor. And the pace of work is slower than a startup. In general. And I too have many criticisms of Google. But. Google has entirely different revenue constraints. It can afford an entirely different way of working.…

I've worked at 8 different companies and none of them could even hold a candle to Google's pace of work. Everything just works. The quota system works, the identity and authorization system works, observability works, the build and release system works. You can be a productive engineer at Google on day 2 if you read the codelabs on day 1. Nobody at Google has ever needed to have their manager email the Jira admin to…

> Nobody at Google has a need to raise a ticket with some ops group in Bengaluru to partition a Kafka topic, renew a certificate, bridge two VPCs, or any of that type of thing.

Except when your team wanted to initially onboard with GOOPS and your request sat in Buganizer for 2 weeks waiting for someone to triage. Uh oh — we're turning down this service next quarter, you will need to go start this onboarding process again with its replacement.

Or when you needed quota in a cell where your product area didn't have Flex. Maybe you can set up a VC with your PARM? Does next week work for your launch plan? Hopefully they can do something for you!

Or when your logs access request sat in GUTS for a month because both of the approvers were on vacation and no, there's not an escalation path.

Or when you needed to change a firewall rule for a project your team inherited which for some reason runs on GCE. Make sure you bring your Ariane link when you open your request. Have ISE reviewed your code? No? ISE currently have a quarter-long backlog, so we're not sure we can grant your firewall exception.

None of these examples are contrived; the weight of the operational bureaucracy is staggering. It may well be that this stuff is felt more on the SRE/Security side around production launches than on the SWE side for experimentation or iterative development, but I struggle with the idea that Google is nimble.

Re: Why did I leave Google or, why did I stay so long?

#638

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I guess you're saying it's fine for employers to "desire" passion but not to "expect" it? I'm personally saying it isn't really the business of the employer to talk about employee passion to begin with. In the same way that the employer may desire an employee to keep a clean home and healthy living habits, because of the various signaling benefits it has for their job duties, but it isn't really the employer's busi…

OK, but that's very far from the quote you originally made. So you can understand my initial confusion. While I agree that there should not be a specific job requirement to keep a clean home and healthy living habits independent of job performance, I absolutely disagree that employers shouldn't "talk" about it in general terms. It's perfectly appropriate for companies to encourage and help their employees to lead hea…

> OK, but that's very far from the quote you originally made.

I don't think so. I mean I guess you'd have to ask the_local_host whether I'm accurately representing the thrust of the quote, but the operative word here is indeed "expect" as opposed to desire or encourage.

Rephrasing the original quote in my own language I'd say something like:

Employers and employees can use purely transactional language to talk about employment and it's fine. Employers and employees can use emotional and moral language such as "passion" to talk about employment and that's fine too. But which language to use should depend on what forms the bedrock of the relationship. If the transactional needs form the ultimate bedrock of the relationship, an expectation of "passion" is no bueno.

There is a difference between encouragement and expectation. And I think employees would chafe under the expectation of e.g. eating healthy food or using the gym (probably not vacation time though, although a select few might, in the same way that I don't think, absent flight concerns, employers would be terribly offput by employees refusing raises).

In the same way that team activities, team meals, happy hour, providing materials about the mission etc. can all be viewed as perfectly fine encouragement for passion for both the mission and the company, that is not the same as expecting passion.

Expectations are two way streets. You get things if you meet them. You don't get things or have things taken away if you don't meet them.

Desires and encouragement are not.

> I absolutely disagree that employers shouldn't "talk" about it in general terms.

Talk is indeed too strong of a word on my part in the sense you're using it, but the point I was trying to get across is that if transactional needs ultimately dominate the relationship then those are the ones that should be emphasized.

I would prefer employers tell employees upfront that they're expected to work long hours and nights for deadlines or similar things in that vein, rather than leave it implicit and then tut-tut them for a lack of passion.

And because of that that's why I emphasize the word "expect" rather than "desire."

Re: Why did I leave Google or, why did I stay so long?

#639

Do companies actually find themselves tons of employees that care so deeply about their mission that they sacrifice pay, equity, promotions, life interests, weekends, and benefits for "the cause"? I get having a team of 20 that is like this, but it does not seem like a concept that scales unless you are SpaceX.

Video game industries kinda get away with lower salaries, longer hours than rest of the "tech standard".

Re: Why did I leave Google or, why did I stay so long?

#640

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Microsoft became almost irrelevant under Ballmer or was at least trending that way. Nadella’s turn around is almost miraculous and is itself probably an interesting story. I wouldn’t bet on that as the norm. I’d expect the norm to be more like IBM, RIM, or Nokia. I agree with most of the article, but one line stuck out to me as particularly wrong: >”After the acquisition, we have an extremely long project that consum…

> Microsoft became almost irrelevant under Ballmer or was at least trending that way I'm not Ballmer's biggest fan, but I think he's often sold short (to Nadella's benefit), you'd almost believe Microsoft was tanking, but it grew a lot under Ballmer (mobile failures notwithstanding). As far as I can tell, Nadella just reprioritized projects that Ballmer launched or shepherded in his boring-but-efficient way: what new…

"The "post-pc" world suggested by Apple/Jobs never materialized."

I think if you could measure the man hours spent using iDevices and Android devices, as a percentage of general computing hours, you'd find that it would dwarf anything. Everyone has a smartphone now. And tablet sales alone outnumber PCs.

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