What went wrong with the Texas power grid? • Hacker News Board

Re: What went wrong with the Texas power grid?

#931

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 4:09 PM UTC

roenxi wrote: post #782

gregw2 wrote: post #117

What went wrong is that the Texas legislature which owns Texas-specific grid process to avoid interference from the Feds didn't figure out how to also ensure Texas generator companies got compensated for weatherizing (and ensuring it was done). How many of the 24+6 recommendations from the NERC/FERC review of last time this happened in Texas (hint:2011) were taken up by the legislature or those at ERCOT they delegate…

It is annoying when this sort of event happens and everyone starts deciding what they believe to be truth within 48 hours of the outage. It makes more sense to be talking about the 2011 outages in terms of what went wrong than the 2021 ones - because we have actual information on 2011 instead of "things went wrong!" now. I want to thank you personally for injecting a PDF into the discussion, but also positively asser…

[deleted]

Re: What went wrong with the Texas power grid?

#932

Post by kingaillas » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 4:25 PM UTC

pomian wrote: post #655

I keep thinking, that from an engineering standpoint, maybe it's better to look at: What went right? Look at all the processes that worked, and continued to work in spite of high demand and stress. Those are the systems that should be studied, copied, and understood.

That doesn't scale because physical infrastructure can't be "copied" as easily. It's better to fix what failed (everything from "use winterized oil for wind turbines" to "insulate above ground pipes" to "better granularity on local power grids" to "better insulation for homes" to "don't have steam turbines at nuclear power plants in the outside air").

Basically TX doesn't required electricity generators to cold-proof their assets so they fail. That's the low regulation low cost route.

Re: What went wrong with the Texas power grid?

#933

Post by trentnix » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 4:25 PM UTC

Mauricebranagh wrote: post #899

trentnix wrote: post #880

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not a bug. It’s the best feature.

Apart from the holding the executive to account part of democracy.

The executive can't do much damage if it doesn't have any money to work with.

Re: What went wrong with the Texas power grid?

#934

Post by mikeytown2 » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 4:27 PM UTC

theshrike79 wrote: post #766

gregw2 wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anecdote: All 7 developers in my Houston team (semi-geographically scattered in the city) lost power; half for >24 hrs (it's 10-25 degrees F here for the last 2-3 days). Most lost water for some stretch of time and some still don't have it. I don't think any completely lost heat (most have gas) but at least one person found their gas fireplace they were hoping would heat them up when out of power didn't really work t…

> I don't think any completely lost heat (most have gas) but at least one person found their gas fireplace they were hoping would heat them up when out of power didn't really work that well. American fireplaces in general are a joke. You are just spending way too much energy and not really storing it anywhere except the air around it. They are built to look good, not to actually heat anything properly. Check any Nord…

You can do a hybrid approach with the hot metal burn chamber for wood gas and earthen materials to slowly radiate the heat. This is called a rocket mass heater. The exhaust temperature is usually below 100C and often smokeless (a complete burn). Using a fan to extract heat from the final vertical stack (pipe around the exhaust with air running by) can give you an exhaust temperature of around 40C. Here's a quick 3 minute video that explains the concept; there's other YouTube videos that go into greater details if you wish to research this topic more. https://youtu.be/fwCz8Ris79g

Re: What went wrong with the Texas power grid?

#935

Post by s0rce » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 4:42 PM UTC

snowwindwaves wrote: post #559

s0rce wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems like CA might has 15-20GW of spare NatGas generation capacity. Looking back at the summer peak (9/6/20) I see 25GW generated at the peak, while we are currently only needing to generate about 8-9GW from NatGas (looking over night when solar drops off).

The parent said there is not enough transmission capacity not generation capacity. Generation needs to be near loads. If not then transmission lines are required to bring current from generators to loads. Transmission lines have fixed capacities, like your internet connection can only transmit so much data/s, they can only transmit so much power.

I thought they were saying there wasn't enough transmission capacity but it wouldn't matter anyways since the rest of the grid didn't have any to spare. Maybe I misinterpreted or responded to the wrong comment.

Re: What went wrong with the Texas power grid?

#936

Post by briffle » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 4:42 PM UTC

reportingsjr wrote: post #301

txlpo78 wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing I said in my comment is incorrect. Texas has 5 different connections with the other grids and can import/export through them. But they are irrelevant right now because the other grids do not have enough spare capacity to send to Texas. >If Texas was part of the Western grid they could be drawing excess hydroelectric power from the pacific northwest right now for example. Texas also could have contributed to h…

This does not seem to be true at all. If you look at a power outage map of Texas you can actually see exactly where the ERCOT boundaries are. Everyone else in Texas that's on the other, federal, grids, are not experiencing widespread power outages. https://poweroutage.us/area/state/texas http://www.ercot.com/content/wcm/landing_pages/89373/ERCOT-I... https://poweroutage.us/area/state/oklahoma Per your comment about l…

There is a 3.6GW DC line that goes from about an hour East of Portland, Oregon, down to LA. Its 2 wires. Texas doesn't have any interconnections with the west. But even if they did, 3GW would not be nearly enough to solve their problem could could replace many natural gas plants that are currently down.

Re: What went wrong with the Texas power grid?

#937

Post by bluGill » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 4:43 PM UTC

beerandt wrote: post #674

bluGill wrote: post #466

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Though with a generator that big and some ingenuity you can plumb the radiator into the house and get heat from the engine. The more load on the genererator the more heat.

Schemes like that are generally how CO poisoning stories start. Or fires. A door gets cracked to run a hose through... etc. Besides, at some point, you're just reinvinting an overly complicated combustion heater. Which I already have, is already hardwired for fuel, and only needs to be plugged in.

Very much true. I didn't touch on safety which is a real issue.

That doesn't make the idea bad though. There have been attempts to do this in commercial furnaces before, but the details are hard, and ultimately of questionable value in general. In this particular situation it might be useful, but that is a lot of complexity for something that only makes sense for a week every 10 years.

Re: What went wrong with the Texas power grid?

#938

Post by fuzzfactor » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 4:43 PM UTC

gregw2 wrote: post #117

What went wrong is that the Texas legislature which owns Texas-specific grid process to avoid interference from the Feds didn't figure out how to also ensure Texas generator companies got compensated for weatherizing (and ensuring it was done). How many of the 24+6 recommendations from the NERC/FERC review of last time this happened in Texas (hint:2011) were taken up by the legislature or those at ERCOT they delegate…

0. Houston Lighting & Power

Local monopoly.

1. Public Utility Holding Company Act of 1935

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Utility_Holding_Company...

Limited the profits of a utility holding company, spurring the formation of additional shell companies to each get the maximum allowed.

Overturned in 2005, when today's highly increased risk was cemented.

2. Houston Industries, Inc.

https://www.referenceforbusiness.com/history2/67/HOUSTON-IND...

3. The Public Utility Commission of Texas

https://www.puc.texas.gov

Still exists in more toothless form after 2005.

4. Electric Reliability Council of Texas (ERCOT)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_Reliability_Council_o...

Est. 1970 just in case of unreliability (for utility shareholders), not much of a factor until recently. Given more leeway to disappoint consumers after 2002.

5. Public Utility Regulatory Act (PURA)

https://www.lawinsider.com/documents/5KMbhJATuC2

Est. 1975.

Modified 1995, 1997, 1999, restructured 2007, latest edition effective as of September 1, 2017.

Straight downhill as far as reliability goes.

https://www.electricchoice.com/blog/guide-texas-electricity-...

Up until 1995, under the HL&P monopoly the first 675 kWh remained extremely low cost for residential consumers as had been agreed with PUC to allow jacking up further residential kWh, and business accounts, into rates beyond the reach of low-income households. Check your old bills. Of course 675 kWh is not enough for air conditioning but otherwise a small household could remain within that tier if they could conserve effectively, and had gas heat for the normally mild winters. As soon as deregulation started, HL&P then began the agressive promotion of new plans to all their established customers, similar to the limited number of newly allowed competitors where giving a break for the first bunch of kWh was no longer required. For a while there it was still required for HL&P consumers who had not opted out of their 1980's plan, but they made whatever straight-rate deals were necessary to get this info off of people's bills ASAP.

6. Deregulation of the Texas electricity market

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deregulation_of_the_Texas_elec...

Headed us in the current direction starting in 2002.

New company Centerpoint took over the energy delivery infrastructure. Transmission assets from HL&P and others, delivery pipelines from gas suppliers, all of it.

As the name implies, pay no attention to a central point of failure. Nothing to see here.

By 1983 in the other most air-conditioned state, FPL the Florida state monopoly in a number of power plants was consuming the same grade of fuel oil as the Houston monopoly. A fuel oil vessel could be loaded from a Houston refinery, and with freight to FL the consumers there were paying half the price as in Houston using the same fuel without the added cost of sea freight.

7. As we have seen, Gov. Abbot has never been good enough for Texas, Lt. Gov. Patrick experienced his high point as a failed sports announcer, and Atty. Gen Paxton has only enough integrity for an uninhabited island.

Don't get me started on the equally compromised Ex. Rep. DeLay who in 2002 became US House Majority "Leader". Left in disgrace over lack of ethics himself.

Re: What went wrong with the Texas power grid?

#939

Post by kingaillas » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 4:43 PM UTC

8note wrote: post #668

tmotwu wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Last year, I went on vacation to Alaska. Me and my friends airbnb'd an off-grid home/cabin in Talkeetna, about several hundred miles north of Anchorage. It was powered entirely on solar panels on the roof and right by the house. Water from the rivers. Granted, it had a wood stove, like most cabin/homes are in the north. Just want to chime in and say that renewables are absolutely very prevalent in colder, remote clim…

Miles north of anchorage? How many hours of sun were you getting? 3? 1?

I was curious so I used sunrisesunset.com to see.

Looks like at June 21 (picking a day around the summer solstice) sunrise is at 4:04 am and sunset is midnight. That's a nice 20 hours of sunshine.

On the flip and dark side, Dec 21 it is sunrise at ~10:30 am and sunset at ~3:30 pm. A sadly short 5 hours of sun. Ouch.

Re: What went wrong with the Texas power grid?

#940

Post by moooo99 » Wed, Feb 17, 2021, 4:45 PM UTC

vultour wrote: post #856

moooo99 wrote: post #852

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean -6°C isn't very cold either. Its not every year you see temperatures like that, but its also not exactly uncommon. We had -17°C (1.4 °F) and lower here in Germany. We had some problems here and there, especially the railway, but afaik there were no major problems regarding power outages and heating. But obviously we're much more prepared for temperatures like this here.

I'm quite certain it's never -6 in your bedroom.

Sorry, misunderstood the original comment. I thought it was referring to outside temperatures