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Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

reuters.com

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Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#81

> Apple said its rules applied equally to all developers and that Epic had violated them. All developers except Amazon, they mean. Now that it has happened, I'm actually surprised it took Epic this long to file suit in the EU. Given Europe's stronger antitrust enforcement and general skepticism of tech giants, Epic likely has a stronger case there than in the US. If I were Epic, I'd have wanted to have both lawsuits…

What do you mean by that? The rules apply to Amazon just the same as to anyone else.

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#82
post #46
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I still don't see a way to resolve the problem that software isn't fungible and so multiple app stores are only good for publisher choice but not user choice. Without the requirement that all apps able to be purchased on all stores at similar prices and still under Apple's review process then apps will flock to the store that makes them the most money and fewest rules and users will have no choice but to acquire that…

Yeah, this isn't really about "choice", it's about control. If there are exclusives on, for example, an iOS Epic store, your choice isn't really a choice, you have to install it from the Epic store. I'm curious how this will play out in general. Android already allows side-loaded applications, and Epic allowed people to install Fortnite outside of the Play Store and it did poorly, so they begrudgingly added Fortnite…

Who is forcing you to install apps from any store? Are you being held hostage and compelled to install apps against your will? Blink twice for yes, three times for no.

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#83
post #4

There is room for 3rd party app stores. Epic will argue that Apple does an absolutely ghastly terrible job of curating the Apple app store, as Apple really has little incentive not to suck completely. The EU court will agree. Apple will spend a year or two saying “it can’t be done”, then issue a signing certificate to Epic.

[deleted]

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No computer platform should be allowed to prevent sideloading or other stores from competing What about platforms like Playstation or the computers built into Teslas etc, should we allow sideloading on those? How do you define a platform?

> What about platforms like Playstation or the computers built into Teslas etc, should we allow sideloading on those? I think we should, yes. Not necessarily by default, but there should be a switch advanced users can flip. Re: Tesla, there is in fact a long history of people fixing and modifying their cars. Why not the computers in those cars?

Hm.

Hypothetical: if you modify the software in a Tesla, and your modification allows a hacker to remote control it, and this power is used to commit vehicular homicide, how much of the burden of responsibility do you have?

I’m not a lawyer, so while I can throw out phrases like “endangering others through negligence”, I don’t know what the threshold is or even if that’s the right concept in this case.

With regards to game consoles, I tend to agree with you — no good reason for them to be allowed to prevent side-loading.

With regards to phones however, I explicitly want the devices heavily locked down by law, to the extent that other people should not be allowed to put random software on them. This is because they are powerful sensor packages that almost everyone carries almost all the time, so the mere possibility of malware turning them into blackmail spy boxes is a problem for all of society — everyone, given what I’ve heard about “three felonies per day” [0] — and not just the person who installs the dodgy app.

I say this despite not liking that the action of American cultural hegemony in the App Store means those stores have a bigger problem with nipples than with violence.

And likewise, I have a problem with the law that requires me (a British citizen working in Germany) to keep the U.S. government informed about my app’s use of encryption in case I “export” something they can’t break, which is insane in my opinion.

Security is important and app stores help, but trust can be chained and delegated, and it is possible to have alternative App Stores which Apple/Google audit for security.

[0] https://kottke.org/13/06/you-commit-three-felonies-a-day

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#85
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the one hand, Apple is acting as a store curator and demanding that its customers be made aware of tracking software. On the other hand, Apple is acting as a platform owner and demanding that they continue to act as the sole store curator on their platform. I do not see the hypocrisy.

How you can argue for less software freedoms, while paying a 30% tax for any app you distribute, is honestly mind boggling to me. >On the one hand, Apple is acting as a store curator and demanding that its customers be made aware of tracking software. This sounds like marketing. Apple is limiting what apps their customers have access to. I wonder if you would make the same argument if Apple starts blocking websites?

[deleted]

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#86
post #79
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to StatCounter it’s ~30% while it’s two times smaller than in the US (~60%) I wouldn’t say it’s “tiny”.

Not enough for "monopolies".

Neither the article nor any of the comments you reply to use the word you quote.

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#87
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then they continue to use the Apple App store.

That may not be an option if work-necessary or social-connection-necessary software moves to an alternate store to enjoy less restrictions.

At the point where your device has work software on it all bets are off to begin with. Your employer might straight up require you to use an Android phone. What you're describing is your employer using their free choice to decide where to distribute apps.

Incidentally, employers already have the ability to distribute custom iOS software for their employees, so your scenario wouldn't happen.

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#88
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Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Either "third party" app stores will also pay to support this ecosystem, in which case Epic will be paying the same amount either way how did you work out that the amount apple gets paid (30%) is the "correct" amount? The only way to find out is via competition. But due to the monopolistic powers of apple, there cannot be competition on their platform. Thus, we do not know the true cost of maintaining this platform…

> how did you work out that the amount apple gets paid (30%) is the "correct" amount? The only way to find out is via competition. The "correct" amount is the amount that everybody is happy to pay. If Epic doesn't want to pay 30%, then 30% is too high for them. That's OK -- nobody is forcing them to pay it. The competition you're describing isn't the cost of running the app store ; it's the cost of maintaining the en…

> New iOS "app store" starts up, but only charges 0.1%. This is possible because they don't write the OS or any of the infrastructure; they're a simple indexer

Apple was already paid handsomely for OS development through the device's purchase price.

> Apple's revenue drops precipitously

Apple has some of the highest margins in the industry. They'll survive.

> In order to maintain the OS, Apple either a) raises the prices of iPhones b) starts selling my information c) invests less in the iPhone and iOS.

See my previous point.

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#89
post #53
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is room for 3rd party app stores. The "Apple Tax" pays for the maintenance of the Apple ecosystem. Epic wants access to this amazing ecosystem, but resents having to help pay to support it. Either "third party" app stores will also pay to support this ecosystem, in which case Epic will be paying the same amount either way; or they'll fail to support the ecosystem, in which case Apple will be forced to turn to…

What ecosystem - i.e. what ecosystem is there that isn't already paid for by the billions and billions Apple make every year? Apple have hundreds of billions in cash do you actually believe they're going to put ads in their services?

>Apple have hundreds of billions in cash do you actually believe they're going to put ads in their services?

That's irrelevant. The issue in question is one of principle, not whether or not someone is in a certain position at this moment in time and can or can't or will or won't do something. If Apple suddenly lost all of it's money, you'd then be ok with them putting ads into their services?

Re: Epic Games steps up Apple fight with EU antitrust complaint

#90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fortnite is a free game, I pay to own my iPhone.

Should it be different for similar games that aren’t free (gratis) then? Should I be required by law to be able to load third-party items in Call of Duty?

There needs to be different rules for products that are essential to modern life, like smartphones.

We have more rules and regulations for things like food services, airlines, banking and farming than we do for a store like GameStop or a jewelry products.

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