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Bitcoin surpasses $50K as major companies jump into crypto

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Re: Bitcoin surpasses $50K as major companies jump into crypto

#391

Post by [deleted] »

I_am_tiberius wrote: post #387
Wowfunhappy wrote: post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My opinion of Bitcoin will change when it stops using more electricity than entire countries, for something Visa can do for comparatively nothing. I would hold the same opinion of any technology which used so much energy when there was a less wasteful alternative. I also happen to be skeptical of Bitcoin's long-term outlook, but that's not why I'm actively against it as a technology. If it wasn't for the planet, I'd…

Visa is no medium of exchange - only a payment network. CO2 emissions are bad for sure. CO2 tax would help with the migration to green energy. Energy consumption however also has a reason -> security. I don't think there is a secure alternative and I don't think anyone wants to continue staying in central banking hell.

[deleted]

Re: Bitcoin surpasses $50K as major companies jump into crypto

#392

Post by realdense »

ertian wrote: post #242
osrec wrote: post #208

I believe Bitcoin is the experimental precursor to proper distributed money. For some reason, even though BTC was meant to be "money", it is now being treated as an asset (at a basic level, an asset is something you hold onto, as it produces additional value, unlike money, which tends to devalue if not put to work). It's almost as if the next big idea in distributed money will be around disincentivising "asset" like…

The eventual distributed money could be bitcoin-associated without being bitcoin itself. For example, DAI[1] is (AFAICT) a derivative of Ethereum, but pinned to USD. It relies on the underlying store of value that Ethereum represents, but isn't tied to the value. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dai_(cryptocurrency)

DAI isn't so much a derivative of Ethereum, rather it is a dApp (decentralised app) that runs on the Ethereum smart contract technology.

ERC-20 tokens are the magic that enable second-layer "currencies" such as DAI and others to work on top of Ethereum. There are other tokens, even WBTC (Wrapped Bitcoin).

DAI itself is backed by a basket of token-based assets such as WBTC, WETH, USDC, USDT etc.

The Ethereum dApps are definitely a fun rabbit-hole to dive into, e.g. UniSwap, Synthetix and other DeFi applications.

The main problem as I see it is the transaction costs are very high (I looked into using UniSwap but it was going to cost > $50 to transact what I wanted). However, in the next few years the Eth2 improvements will help scale the network and hopefully see transaction prices fall.

Re: Bitcoin surpasses $50K as major companies jump into crypto

#393

Post by jcranmer »

adhoc32 wrote: post #289
jcranmer wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not completely irrelevant: it is how you distinguish productive investment schemes from scammy Ponzi schemes.

Please stop calling it Ponzi. A Ponzi scheme is a well defined scam with structural hierarchy. People lower in the hierarchy are obliged to pay the upper level money in order to stay in the game. They also try to recruit others in order to get paid themselves. Bitcoin is traded in the free market just like a stock. You are not calling Apple stock a Ponzi scheme because some people bought at 1$ a piece am I right?

You're referring to a pyramid scheme, not a Ponzi scheme. (Enough people mix the two up that the Wikipedia pages on both articles have sections on the differences between pyramid and Ponzi schemes).

Ponzi schemes are where you pay investors using the contributions of new entrants, so investors only make money so long as new entrants are joining. It's not exactly a new tradition for people to be referring to financial markets and bubbles as Ponzi schemes, although whether or not this appellation is appropriate is somewhat contested.

Re: Bitcoin surpasses $50K as major companies jump into crypto

#394

Post by Wowfunhappy »

DennisP wrote: post #390
Wowfunhappy wrote: post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My opinion of Bitcoin will change when it stops using more electricity than entire countries, for something Visa can do for comparatively nothing. I would hold the same opinion of any technology which used so much energy when there was a less wasteful alternative. I also happen to be skeptical of Bitcoin's long-term outlook, but that's not why I'm actively against it as a technology. If it wasn't for the planet, I'd…

A carbon price wouldn't damage Bitcoin. Electricity costs for some miners would go up, some would drop out, hash rate goes down, difficulty adjusts to keep blocks coming out every ten minutes, and everything continues as before. (Still think proof-of-stake is big improvement though.)

Wouldn't the bulk of mining just move to the one part of the world without a carbon tax? I know that's a danger with carbon taxes in general, but it strikes me as far easier to do with Bitcoin than anything else.

Re: Bitcoin surpasses $50K as major companies jump into crypto

#395

Post by 4a3f35b5a »

gge wrote: post #357
eterm wrote: post #3

> many crypto investors to believe the latest bull run is different "This time it's different" isn't an argument I find compelling for why something that is known to have bubbles and manipulation isn't in a bubble.

This time could end up being a bubble, but it is very different for many reasons. The first is that Bitcoin is thriving as a store of value. It hasn't seen much adoption as a payments system and is unlikely to do so in the future, but 2020 saw many notable people using adopting Bitcoin as a store of value. See MassMutual, Paul Tudor Jones, Stan Druckenmiller, Tesla, among many other examples. The second reason is tha…

> These defi protocols are generating huge cash flows. This is real people using decentralized technologies built on blockchains like Ethereum.

I'm fairly new to Crypto so I don't understand this: it's looking like all cool new things are built on Ethereum (which, itself has grown quite a lot) so why is Bitcoin rising? How are Bitcoin & advances in Ethereum-based techonologies correlated?

Re: Bitcoin surpasses $50K as major companies jump into crypto

#396

Post by trident5000 »

rspeele wrote: post #373
trident5000 wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldnt even make that classification. SWIFT and ACH are not akin to L1 Bitcoin. Theres no way tech illiterate masses are going to physically move their btc on chain. For instance 95% of retail doesnt even move their btc off exchange. Their higher level "settlement" will be different from an institutional provider or exchange settlement where L1 is really used. SWIFT and ACH is used liberally (hence the high tx) be…

I guess my point is, can you describe what activity will take place on-chain? If it's just money moving between a handful of big banks, why should they use Bitcoin rather than a centralized scheme they all agree on? For the rest of us, the next layers sitting above the Bitcoin blockchain can either be a truly decentralized, trustless layer with on-chain settlement, like Lightning Network, which might incur too many o…

The on chain activity will be rare nerds and major institutions infrequently moving funds.

"why should they use Bitcoin rather than a centralized scheme they all agree on?" because customers decide what they want to own and they dont seem to like the fed printing non-stop thing they keep doing.

LN will be for the rare nerds actually using the chain as payment and want cheap, instant, frequent transactions but on chain settlement periodically just as an institution would.

Re: Bitcoin surpasses $50K as major companies jump into crypto

#397

Post by Wowfunhappy »

trident5000 wrote: post #366
urda wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's factually a horrific waste of energy. People pointing that out are not looking back in "hindsight", but are actually concerned with the damages it is doing to our planet.

If its so bad then why does Elon Musk himself believe in BTC? - mr green man. Its obviously hyperbole and one dimensional thinking.

I am, in fact, very disappointed in Elon Musk.

Re: Bitcoin surpasses $50K as major companies jump into crypto

#398

Post by jarenmf »

bobm_kite9 wrote: post #148

What about the 51% attack problem? Why doesn’t this matter? Can someone explain how this currency is a good bet when there is this seemly huge gaping hole in the system. Honest question!

At current energy prices, assuming you need half of the energy needed to do mining to perform a 51% attack and you have access to the needed hardware. You need to burn ~12 million usd daily to take over the network

Re: Bitcoin surpasses $50K as major companies jump into crypto

#399

Post by dheera »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #217
dheera wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Elon Musk went on Twitter and called Bitcoin "BS" to drive the price down so they could buy at a discount. They then announced their Bitcoin purchase with fanfare that drove the price up, marking a quick return on their investment. They used Elon's influence to make a quick profit on the frenzy. I don't see an inherent problem with this. People who were too gullible to believe influencer crap and caused bitcoin's p…

> I don't see an inherent problem with this. People who were too gullible to believe influencer crap and caused bitcoin's price to go down by panic selling are now gone from the market, and the believers stayed in and made money. That's a good thing, and weeds out gullible people from the system. So when the price goes down due to influencers, people are dumb for selling. But when the price goes up due to the very sa…

> But when the price goes up due to the very same influencers, people are smart for buying?

The way I see it, Bitcoin is all about hype and modelling hype, so if you can correctly model a particular influencer's effect on a bunch of sheep, I think it's fine to reward that modelling prowess.

As for the sheep themselves, they might win or lose, it's a coin toss, but at the end of the day, they're just sheep.

Re: Bitcoin surpasses $50K as major companies jump into crypto

#400

Post by trident5000 »

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #397
trident5000 wrote: post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If its so bad then why does Elon Musk himself believe in BTC? - mr green man. Its obviously hyperbole and one dimensional thinking.

I am, in fact, very disappointed in Elon Musk.

Why? Because an application thats important to people uses mostly renewable energy?
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