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Bitcoin surpasses $50K as major companies jump into crypto

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Re: Bitcoin surpasses $50K as major companies jump into crypto

#281

So it sounds like lemming group think. It seems like someone one should hold “just in case,” but no real valid reason to do so yet (that I’ve heard). We know transactions are slow and expensive, so it’s not a good replacement for ordinary commerce. It can be used to transfer across borders, but there often is asymmetry in capital movement that makes this difficult in the places you need it most (poor countries with r…

I'm also still wrapping my head around this just like you, but I think I understand enough to answer some of your questions.

> We know transactions are slow and expensive, so it’s not a good replacement for ordinary commerce.

I don't think that this is obviously true. Digital transfer of the US Dollar is similarly slow and expensive (see: ACH, Wire, SWIFT). The response you'll hear the most frequently is that BTC (and digital currencies) should be compared to the US Dollar, not to Visa and Stripe and Venmo etc. Right now, if you want to send US dollars to somebody and you're unable to do it through PayPal/Venmo/Square/Visa/MasterCard, your best bet is to literally mail cash to the recipient. BTC solves that problem; you now have the option to send someone "cash" in a trust-less way, but that's probably not how the majority of people would use BTC.

The blockchain doesn't have to be used to settle every single transaction in real-time, just like you don't have to use ACH/Wire to send $5 to someone electronically for every transaction. Just like banks today send a batched ACH files of all money movement at the end of the day, they may do the same on the blockchain hourly/daily. The benefit of BTC over USD is that there is a way to "mail someone a briefcase of cash" without having to actually mail them; instead you can "mail" it to them on the blockchain and have it take a few hours rather than 3-5 business days. If you want to send US dollars faster, you can rely on centralized institutions that build financial products on top of the US Dollar, but the same can happen on top of other non-government-backed currencies. Just like you have a bank account where you can see in Dollars or Yen or Pounds what your bank balance is, one ought to be able to open an account and see what their balance is in BTC or ETH or Nano...or so the argument goes.

> It also lacks a lot of the controls that traditional banks have for good reasons, so fraud becomes harder to tackle, and things like refunds are just at the mercy of the other side of the transaction (making commerce even harder, as well as basic banking)

Again, you want to compare BTC/ETH to the actual currencies, rather than the institutions that engage with those currencies. All of what you said is true of any fiat currency: I can physically hand you a $20 bill, and that transaction can happen in a totally un-traceable way already. There’s a common saying that if cash were invented today, it would be illegal, since it’s hard for the government to track and they wouldn’t like it.

> So then it becomes a digital store of value, one that is only as valued as the market gives it, and typically markets eventually correct when there’s no underlying true value proposition (as we can see with $GME).

This is a good point, but I found a good "counter-point" in Matt Levine's latest Bloomberg Money blog post: https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2021-02-16/goldma...

Here is the relevant bit:

"We have talked a lot recently about the Reddit-fueled rally in meme stocks like GameStop Corp. One thing I have said about this rally is that it reflected Reddit traders’ correct understanding of a simple market dynamic, which is that if they all bought the same stock at once then it would go up. So they did. Institutional Bitcoin adoption, as we have also discussed, has a somewhat similar dynamic: Each time a big institution says “we like Bitcoin now,” Bitcoin goes up, because widespread mainstream institutional adoption is clearly bullish for Bitcoin at this point. So if you are a big institution or corporation, you can make some free money by (1) buying Bitcoin, (2) announcing “we like Bitcoin now,” (3) watching Bitcoin go up, and (4) selling the Bitcoins you bought for a quick profit. (Or keep them as a bet that other institutions will do the same thing and you’ll make even more profits.)

This dynamic, separate from any particular institutional decision, is good for Bitcoin: If it’s in every big bank’s and corporation’s short-term financial interest to quietly buy some Bitcoins and then noisily make a show of adopting Bitcoin, then a lot of them will, which will have the effect of pushing up the price (both because of their buying and because of their announcements). Unlike meme stocks, there is no underlying business, no cash flows that do or don’t make the price make sense: The price of Bitcoin makes sense or not purely as a social fact; if there are “fundamentals,” they are things like “widespread mainstream adoption,” which you can provide. “The fundamentals of Bitcoin are strong, look, Morgan Stanley is buying some,” Morgan Stanley could plausibly say, after buying some Bitcoins. So it might as well do that.

With the meme stocks the natural thing was to worry about the endgame for that process; you can’t have a stock price that is divorced from fundamental value forever. With Bitcoin, you ... can? Like if the endgame for Bitcoin was “universal adoption by corporations and institutions as a digital store of value,” then that sounds like a good and permanent and somehow fundamental result?"

> so it’s terrible as a wide spread value store because it removes an important tool that governments have to handle the economy (dealt with debt via inflation aka printing money, which can be executed “well” (US) and really poorly (Zimbabwe)).

This is very debatable, and you've more or less illustrated the controversy by pointing to a "good" version and a "bad" version. The political question is whether the possibility of "bad" means that the concept of government-controlled inflationary assets is inherently bad. I won't pretend that there's an objective answer, but neither should you; the fact that it removes the tool you describe can both be described as a feature or a bug, depending on your political leaning.

Re: Bitcoin surpasses $50K as major companies jump into crypto

#282

Does anyone else feel like: - they've missed an opportunity to get rich with minimal effort from crypto - still have absolutely no interest in jumping in at this point?

Think about all the people who bought lotteries since you were born and have became rich while you stood on the sidelines. Do you feel regret?

Re: Bitcoin surpasses $50K as major companies jump into crypto

#283
post #42

Does anyone else feel like: - they've missed an opportunity to get rich with minimal effort from crypto - still have absolutely no interest in jumping in at this point?

What helps me sleep at night is that even had I entered all this time ago with BTC I would have exited 100 times by now. There have indeed been many 2x,3x,5x multipliers with BTC but there have been so many instances when it was unclear how everything is going to turn out which would personally prompt me to consider exiting with what I had. As my friend nicely put it: only way we could have gotten rich from BTC is ha…

Or if you have totally unshakeable faith in it, because you see us heading towards a game-theoretic attractor where bitcoin is the primary global store of value. That's worked for me :)

Re: Bitcoin surpasses $50K as major companies jump into crypto

#284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The average transaction fee is a bit disingenuous. Many people are not even using segwit and thats on them. You can also use lightning at this point in time but people dont know how to do it and wallets have not implemented yet. High fees usually prod people and services to adapt to the current tech to get costs down. I expect this to happen soon as high fees are somewhat recent. Also you can send a 50 cent tx fee an…

Transaction fees are high regardless of using Segwit or not and the Lightning Network is not widely adopted or user friendly at all.

This response is just insignificant and ignores everything I said. Segwit adoption is at 50% and again, as I said in my comment, Lightning will be further adopted over time for people who want lower fees. The options are here its up to people and services to use them. And they will as their customers get angry.

Re: Bitcoin surpasses $50K as major companies jump into crypto

#285
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only cryptocurrency that might one day become real “internet money” is nano , because it has no fees and transactions are almost instant.

I looked into nano because it kept getting mentioned. Seems like the only way to acquire it is to buy it from someone who already has it. Somehow, that isn't very motivating.

Originally it was distributed in a very fair manner, compared to other coins; it had a faucet which required captcha solving to get coins: https://medium.com/nanocurrency/the-nano-faucet-c99e18ae1202

Now, yes, you have to exchange for it from other currencies, as there is a finite supply which has already been issued.

Re: Bitcoin surpasses $50K as major companies jump into crypto

#286
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, that's what bitcoin should have been. Too bad it also consumes an insane amount of energy and isn't able to process a lot of transactions per second. Hope that a good cryptocurrency gets more traction and will be the next decentralized "paypal / digital currency".

What about Lightning network? AFAIK it works right now, it's instant and scalable.

Doesn't relying on the Lightning network compromise Bitcoin's promise of no-trust finance?

Re: Bitcoin surpasses $50K as major companies jump into crypto

#287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Haha, yes. In 2011, a guy on my team was all about bitcoin and dogecoin and such. I think bitcoin was like 11 cents a coin, or maybe a dollar by that point. I just plain didn't get it. Still barely do. I could have easily picked up a few hundred dollars of coin or, if I was a believer, a grand or two. Had I held onto it, I would be worth hundreds of millions of dollars. However, if I got in at 10 cents, I would have…

The last point is the big one. Almost no one would have carried on through the last 3 bitcoin bubbles if they did buy at the start.

I know several people personally that did. Among people who have worked in the cryptocurrency industry it's not unusual that they've cashed out small portions of their stash in each bubble but still hold some today.

Re: Bitcoin surpasses $50K as major companies jump into crypto

#288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The forefront of the Bitcoin frenzy isn't even on the blockchain, it's at the exchanges. Hardcore tech people and those who don't (or can't) trust institutions with their Bitcoin will pay the transaction fees to get their money out of exchanges and into their own wallet. The average retail investor, however, doesn't want to be their own bank. They just want in on the price action, while letting the exchange manage th…

>"Does anyone really think the person buying crypto $100 at a time in their Robinhood account wants to pay $18 (current average transaction fee) every time they want to move that BTC into their wallet?" I'm curious is this the transaction per $100 or is $18 a flat fee regardless of transfer amount?

It's a flat fee. The $18 may be the average currently, but it's on the high end. You'll probably be fine with $5. It all depends on how much you want the transaction to be in the next block. If you're sending $50,000 in BTC then you don't care about $18.

If you're transferring smaller amounts, why are you using Bitcoin? Use Bitcoin Cash or Litecoin or one of these newfangled proof-of-stake currencies. Then it'll be a couple of cents flat.

Re: Bitcoin surpasses $50K as major companies jump into crypto

#289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, for the upteenth time: there is NO SUCH THING as "fundamental value". There is just one thing: supply and demand. The fact that demand might be powered by something some folks might consider "irrational" is completely irrelevant to the conversation.

It is not completely irrelevant: it is how you distinguish productive investment schemes from scammy Ponzi schemes.

Please stop calling it Ponzi. A Ponzi scheme is a well defined scam with structural hierarchy. People lower in the hierarchy are obliged to pay the upper level money in order to stay in the game. They also try to recruit others in order to get paid themselves. Bitcoin is traded in the free market just like a stock. You are not calling Apple stock a Ponzi scheme because some people bought at 1$ a piece am I right?
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