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Umberto Eco: Ur-Fascism (1995) [pdf]

theanarchistlibrary.org

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Re: Umberto Eco: Ur-Fascism (1995) [pdf]

#71
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand what's controversial about your statement or why it's being downvoted.

Well, in the case of this particular piece, the very first lines are the author explaining that he was a member of the youth wing of the Italian fascist party. So it seems to me a strange context to complain about people who talk about fascism without knowing what it is.

Perhaps the parent was referring to the GP commenter's

> the list gets wielded in a way to stick the 'fascist' label on someone, and not much else.

rather than throwing shade on Eco's specific usage.

For what it's worth I agree with the sentiment that most people using the word "fascist" couldn't give you an accurate definition of the original meaning of the term. You could argue that there's a new word "fascist*" that means "authoritarian and mean", but when making specific historical reference to the original term "fascist" it's sometimes important to strictly use the original definition (inasmuch as there was a strict original definition; part of Eco's thesis I think is that Fascism has always been somewhat amorphous).

For example if you're comparing and contrasting the rise of the Nazi party in Germany to modern Trumpism, or making a claim about historical communist systems of governments leading to tyranny, then you need readers to interpret you as using "fascist" or "communist" (no *). If you're trying to get your tribe riled up on cable news then you are probably using "fascist*" or "communist*".

I think it's OK to rail against people mis-using "fascist*", but I think it's about as futile as complaining about people mis-using the words "literally" or "comprised of".

Re: Umberto Eco: Ur-Fascism (1995) [pdf]

#72
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know this is usually how americans explain democrats vs republicans, but is it really how the parties function? As an outsider (not american) looking in, and judging by the policies of the last couple decades, it seems republicans always increase government spending (therefore they don't actually believe in "small government"), and democrats pretty much rule for the oligarchs (therefore they don't really believe in…

You're making the mistake of believing that the parties represent the sides that exist in America. Most people on the right would disagree that the Republican party represents them, and most of the left would disagree that the Democratic party represents them.

> Most people on the right would disagree that the Republican party represents them, and most of the left would disagree that the Democratic party represents them.

Most of those people would say that the party they vote for represents them "enough", which is at the end of the day what matters electorally.

Re: Umberto Eco: Ur-Fascism (1995) [pdf]

#73
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know this is usually how americans explain democrats vs republicans, but is it really how the parties function? As an outsider (not american) looking in, and judging by the policies of the last couple decades, it seems republicans always increase government spending (therefore they don't actually believe in "small government"), and democrats pretty much rule for the oligarchs (therefore they don't really believe in…

You're making the mistake of believing that the parties represent the sides that exist in America. Most people on the right would disagree that the Republican party represents them, and most of the left would disagree that the Democratic party represents them.

That's basically what the original poster said - "Many Americans view our federal government poorly, on both sides of the aisle".

I can imagine Americans of both sides don't see the parties as representing them. This seems to be a theme these days, no matter if the party in power is left/right/center, and it's not only contained to democracies either (it's pretty clear by now that turkish and russian folks aren't happy w/ their dictatorships either, for instance). It somewhat feels _distrusting centralized forms of government_ is the (new?) trend?

Re: Umberto Eco: Ur-Fascism (1995) [pdf]

#74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m relying on the definition from dictionaries and historians, not the collective ignorance of the mob. Truth isn’t a matter of upvotes.

fascism noun fas· cism | \ ˈfa-ˌshi-zəm also ˈfa-ˌsi- \ Definition of fascism 1 often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition 2 : a tendency toward…

Absolutely. From my reading, it’s being used to describe everyone from anti-government libertarians to rationalists, to nationalists to people who think religion is an important part of civic society. I’d like to point out the complete absurdity of describing those wanting smaller government as fascists, but alas, here we are.

As I said in another comment, it’s become a byword for “person with right wing opinions that I disagree with.”

Re: Umberto Eco: Ur-Fascism (1995) [pdf]

#75
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Collected from your various comments in this subthread: >99.9% of the people throwing around the word fascist today have little to no understanding of what that political ideology means. The author explains in the first line of the article, that he was a member of the fascist youth wing. Do you really think he doesn't know what it is? If you think he doesn't, I'd certainly be interested in hearing why. >I’m relying o…

This essay is from 25 years ago. I was referring to people today.

[flagged]

Re: Umberto Eco: Ur-Fascism (1995) [pdf]

#76
It seems overly broad, but written in a really snarly way. I think the main popularity of this is how easy it is to apply to anyone who disagree with - just match the overly broad descriptors with your opponents (it will fit on almost any populist movement - i.e. any group that has protests) and you just need to snarl and line up why they fit the prerogative descriptions of populist movements.

Let's just look at the first bit:

> The first feature of Ur-Fascism is the cult of tradition.

Notice how snarly "cult" is. If you think people who eat pineapple on pizza are wrong (and a bit crazy) it's a "cult".

> Traditionalism is of course much older than fascism. Not only was it typical of counter-revolutionary Catholic thought after the French revolution, but it was born in the late Hellenistic era, as a reaction to classical Greek rationalism. In the Mediterranean basin, people of different religions (most of them indulgently accepted by the Roman Pantheon) started dreaming of a revelation received at the dawn of human history. This revelation, according to the traditionalist mystique, had remained for a long time concealed under the veil of forgotten languages — in Egyptian hieroglyphs, in the Celtic runes, in the scrolls of the little known religions of Asia.

So we've already admitted that "cult of tradition" is pretty meaningless, every group will have someone who traces elements of their "traditions" back to a previous group.

> This new culture had to be syncretistic. Syncretism is not only, as the dictionary says, “the combination of different forms of belief or practice”; such a combination must tolerate contradictions. Each of the original messages contains a silver of wisdom, and whenever they seem to say different or incompatible things it is only because all are alluding, allegorically, to the same primeval truth.

But surely EVERY group has syncretic traditions. This is almost like saying "Fascists drink milk, not just milk but milk from mammals". I suppose you could argue that fascists drink milk (and combine elements from a variety of traditions) in an obnoxious, stupid and irrational way, so why not just say the three big warning signs of fascism are that they're obnoxious, stupid, and irrational?

> As a consequence, there can be no advancement of learning. Truth has been already spelled out once and for all, and we can only keep interpreting its obscure message.

You'd be hard pressed to find a bigger syncretistic traditionalist than Isaac Newton. You'd also be hard pressed to find someone who create a more important advancement in learning.

> One has only to look at the syllabus of every fascist movement to find the major traditionalist thinkers. The Nazi gnosis was nourished by traditionalist, syncretistic, occult elements. The most influential theoretical source of the theories of the new Italian right, Julius Evola, merged the Holy Grail with The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, alchemy with the Holy Roman and Germanic Empire. The very fact that the Italian right, in order to show its open-mindedness, recently broadened its syllabus to include works by De Maistre, Guenon, and Gramsci, is a blatant proof of syncretism. If you browse in the shelves that, in American bookstores, are labeled as New Age, you can find there even Saint Augustine who, as far as I know, was not a fascist. But combining Saint Augustine and Stonehenge — that is a symptom of Ur-Fascism.

We've now gone from "talks about traditional" to outright occultism.

I think it's probably better to chalk this up to the totalising nature of fascism (as well as other totalising political movements like Marxism, and maybe even religious-political movements).

It's not the tradition (and certainly not the syncretism) that really matters here, what I think is a warning sign would be the totalising nature of fascism (and other dangerous movements) as it seeks to establish control over all aspects of life.

Re: Umberto Eco: Ur-Fascism (1995) [pdf]

#77
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This essay is from 25 years ago. I was referring to people today.

[flagged]

Sigh. One can’t even point out historical facts without being accused of being a Nazi. The level of discourse really has fallen here.

I merely said it was ironic that people calling others fascists don’t usually refer to the group who invented the concept.

Re: Umberto Eco: Ur-Fascism (1995) [pdf]

#79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Many Americans view our federal government poorly, on both sides of the aisle Maybe the current instance of the government. But as for the idea of government in general, the opinions are sharply different across the aisle.

No, I think both sides have an idea of the perfect government. It's just that the ideas differ radically (in fact, they are mutually incompatible). So we get the current situation, where neither side is satisfied with what they have. And I fear the degree to which both sides think they have to destroy the other side in order to get what they want...

i think there is a significant segment of the polity in the center that is unrepresented.

Re: Umberto Eco: Ur-Fascism (1995) [pdf]

#80
post #21

Something that for many years I've seen as "Ur-Fascist" in our culture is the popularity and continuous production of relatively vapid superhero movies. The majority of these are power fantasy porn, and like porn the only focus is really on the fetish and the orgasm. There's little characterization and little plot, and the villains are always cast as either pure evil or as a straw man representation of some other poi…

>I wonder if the rise of fascist thinking of the 4chan /pol variety among younger people can in part be explained by their entire generation having been raised on a steady diet of comic book flicks and of course similar "fanservice" Anime. 4chan is a contrarian website. The "rise of fascist thinking" is directly related to younger people being brought up on a steady diet of social justice nonsense being forced on the…

Literal Nazis and fascists were on 4chan far before the social justice movement was popularized in the US.
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