Umberto Eco: Ur-Fascism (1995) [pdf]
51–60 of 205 posts
Re: Umberto Eco: Ur-Fascism (1995) [pdf]
#52Earlier quoted context omitted.
The right is absolutely not anti-government. They're just against the use of government to disrupt existing hierarchies or interfere with tradition. For concrete proof look at Federal deficits and spending under right and left wing administrations, or the corresponding growth in the size and scope of government. There is at best no difference, and in a few cases government actually shrank in nominal terms under more…
> (This is why libertarians are neither left nor right.) I'd have to say that the Americans that adopted the libertarian label are on the right, but the original anarchists for whom the term 'libertarian' was coined were on the left. That dichotomy is where the labels right-libertarian[1] and left-libertarian[2] were derived. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-libertarianism [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lef…
"Racism is the lowest form of collectivism." - Ayn Rand
I've read Randian / Marxist where there is broad agreement as to many humanistic goals. There's just a deep disagreement about how best to get there.
(I'm not a Randian, though I do think she's worth reading and had some valid points about a number of things.)
In the past few years alt-right types have started trying to bogart the term libertarian as part of their broad recruitment efforts. I no longer use the term much for that reason. I did back when words meant things.
Re: Umberto Eco: Ur-Fascism (1995) [pdf]
#53This has been making the rounds lately, and the use of it hasn't sat well with me. I've struggled to articulate why; gonna try to do so here. The analysis is good, and finally getting to see the original source is better, because what tends to get circulated is way more reductive than this. But it seems like the list gets wielded in a way to stick the 'fascist' label on someone, and not much else. If someone hits 12…
Re: Umberto Eco: Ur-Fascism (1995) [pdf]
#54Earlier quoted context omitted.
99.9% of the people throwing around the word fascist today have little to no understanding of what that political ideology means. The exact same situation happens with the word communist , excerpt with the roles reversed. Both are symptoms of falling educational levels, lack of historical knowledge, and an increasing drive to dehumanize and polarize the opposition.
If only 0.1% of people agree with your definition of fascism, maybe you're the one with the incorrect definition.
Re: Umberto Eco: Ur-Fascism (1995) [pdf]
#55Something that for many years I've seen as "Ur-Fascist" in our culture is the popularity and continuous production of relatively vapid superhero movies. The majority of these are power fantasy porn, and like porn the only focus is really on the fetish and the orgasm. There's little characterization and little plot, and the villains are always cast as either pure evil or as a straw man representation of some other poi…
It's interesting you say that because 4chan is in general very critical of "capeshit" as they call it. https://boards.4chan.org/search#/capeshit
Re: Umberto Eco: Ur-Fascism (1995) [pdf]
#56Earlier quoted context omitted.
Considering that the label of fascism is usually being used with reference the the Nazis (ironically almost never to the actual Italian fascists themselves - a symptom of the historical ignorance I mentioned), I’m gonna say yes, the word has a specific meaning.
You say "actual Italian fascists" as if the Nazi party wasn't "actually fascist". I would say it's pretty clear that you're the one with the poor understanding of fascism.
Apparently historical facts are downvoted now?
Re: Umberto Eco: Ur-Fascism (1995) [pdf]
#57This has been making the rounds lately, and the use of it hasn't sat well with me. I've struggled to articulate why; gonna try to do so here. The analysis is good, and finally getting to see the original source is better, because what tends to get circulated is way more reductive than this. But it seems like the list gets wielded in a way to stick the 'fascist' label on someone, and not much else. If someone hits 12…
> To the extent they someone does match the list, all that really does is note that he'd match the characteristics of a few governments in the early 20th century. But that's only one kind of totalitarianism, and obsessive focus on it allows other kinds to slip through the cracks.
I think this comes down to Fascism just being a bit of an odd duck in the political discussion. Fascism seems to be an ever-present undercurrent of basically all Democratic and Republic-style societies, always there but not always apparent. There is always a subset of the population that believes their Government doesn't work, for any number of reasons, and to any given extent: Fascism plays well with a certain subset of those people. And the appeal is very easy to understand: if you perceive the systems that rule over you are fatally flawed, wouldn't it be so much better and easier to circumvent those systems and put in place people who would break the rules, but improve the nation?
But that of course alone does not constitute Fascism. I was listening to one of Robert Evan's podcasts where he and his guest (I'm sorry I forget the episode and show) were remarking that Fascism is less an ideology or even a movement, and more of just, an aesthetic that could be adopted by basically any ideology or movement, if the appropriate leader comes along, which is one of the reasons it gets thrown around so much, besides just the historical connotations to the Nazis, of course. They theorized that the values of most Fascist movements (appeals to tradition/a mythic past, hatred of weakness, hatred of the other) make them more compatible with those of a conservative bent, but leftists are not immune from it either.
People tend to forget that most of the Axis powers, save perhaps for Imperial Japan, were also extremely Fascist. Italy especially. And, prior to the United States' involvement in WWII, Hitler and Mussolini were renowned for their invigorating of their respective countries and their abilities as orators.
> This is a bit ironic, no? He's amalgamating aspects of different cultures into a generalized descriptor of a culture that's still being referenced decades later.
I mean, it keeps showing up. There are authoritarians seemingly all over the place at our particular moment of world history, many of which tick off numerous boxes on Eco's list. Does this mean they are all Fascists? I would say, yes, to a degree. I don't think one must wait for all the boxes to be checked before asking some questions. Does that mean they all merit interventions ala World War II? No. I just think it's something worth keeping in mind. And besides, America, the world police, are currently ticking far too many of those boxes ourselves to be throwing any stones out of our glass Fascist house anyway.
Re: Umberto Eco: Ur-Fascism (1995) [pdf]
#58Something that for many years I've seen as "Ur-Fascist" in our culture is the popularity and continuous production of relatively vapid superhero movies. The majority of these are power fantasy porn, and like porn the only focus is really on the fetish and the orgasm. There's little characterization and little plot, and the villains are always cast as either pure evil or as a straw man representation of some other poi…
4chan is a contrarian website. The "rise of fascist thinking" is directly related to younger people being brought up on a steady diet of social justice nonsense being forced on them from every direction, for which the obvious opposite and most contrarian stance is the one held by the one and only, the late Adolf Hitler.
Re: Umberto Eco: Ur-Fascism (1995) [pdf]
#59Earlier quoted context omitted.
99.9% of the people throwing around the word fascist today have little to no understanding of what that political ideology means. The exact same situation happens with the word communist , excerpt with the roles reversed. Both are symptoms of falling educational levels, lack of historical knowledge, and an increasing drive to dehumanize and polarize the opposition.
If 99.9% of people missunderstand what a word means, then maybe it doesn't really mean what you think it does, or has no clear meaning at all. Webster didn't get his dictionary from a discrete meeting with some cave spirit.
Though there is a problem of ambiguity if word is reused (adjusted) for different meaning, while books (and people) from 1940 still continue using the old meaning.
(just pointing out that meaning of words of dead people also matter)
Re: Umberto Eco: Ur-Fascism (1995) [pdf]
#60They briefly discuss Eco's essay before delving into quite detailed accounts of various insurrections.
The series has episodes on The Beer Hall Putsch, The March on Rome, The Spanish Civil War (with the usual caveats about Franco being a fascist or not) and the assault on the French national assembly in 1934.
The historical parallels, while perhaps a tad exaggerated by the hosts, are quite interesting.