Earlier quoted context omitted.
Or you could work hard and advance your career.
Maybe, but only if you have control over that, and it's only a great deal if you can control it. Usually you control that if you're either a stakeholder, or you make smart choices in terms of what you work on and who you do it for, rather than to what degree you suffer. If you have no agency, and no way of getting that agency, then it's not worth displacing yourself past a certain point. If advancing your career beca…
Spotify is letting employees work from anywhere while paying SF and NY salaries
341–350 of 414 posts
Re: Spotify is letting employees work from anywhere while paying SF and NY salaries
#342Earlier quoted context omitted.
How much were you hitting? I haven’t seen contracts that go that high, I’m on 140K base + car allowance now (8K), in total I make around 220-215K cash w/ bonuses. employer pension is about another 20K or so a year. IR35 made contracting complicated but even before that I’ve never seen anything that gets you to SV levels of total comp.
I've heard of contracts of 250K-300K GBP for senior architects positions.
Re: Spotify is letting employees work from anywhere while paying SF and NY salaries
#343Earlier quoted context omitted.
> It's not that complicated. On paper.
It really isn't all that complicated though, and just takes money to fix the urban planning mistakes that have been made in many metropolitan cities. Montreal is probably the most livable "big" city in North America, and it's mostly because of three things: 1. Excellent transportation. The metro is for the most part consistent, extremely affordable (it's ~$85/month, and about half that for students and youth), safe,…
Re: Spotify is letting employees work from anywhere while paying SF and NY salaries
#344Earlier quoted context omitted.
Utilities, deliveries, etc... Urban areas are way better in many ways.
Heck just roads. At a certain level of rural you are paving and patching 10 miles of road per person. In the city you are paving like a few feet per person.
Re: Spotify is letting employees work from anywhere while paying SF and NY salaries
#345Earlier quoted context omitted.
In a world where employees need to show up to 6X Co HQ everyday to work, the cost of living and the cost of hiring is directly linked (6x). But in a world where people can work anywhere, salaries will be disconnected from housing costs and we may see a lot of 6x companies happily slide lower. It will come down to how many employees meet the 6X Co's hiring bar and how good 6X Co is at turning new hires into productive…
Great points and I will add: It is easy for a thousand engineers to train in Bay Area and move elsewhere. But could another locale train a thousand engineers to be ready to employed in the Bay Area companies? In many cases, the value (initial value) comes from assimilating in the culture and while a lot of bigCos could still make people work in Bay Area before sending them home, the challenge is for these locations t…
The Bay Area does not have a monopoly on good culture or experts: at times it may even notably lack them. There are many experts there and much good culture to learn from, but there are also many idiots and charlatans, and it is just as likely you'll find one of them first. How does a beginner tell the difference?
There is no locational bound on where people can learn to write great software, on where they can write great software, on where they can teach others to write great software, or on where a strong culture can be grown and shared, i.e. one of good ethics, responsibility, fun, art, innovation, trust, etc.
The Bay Area is not magical; it is just a place where a lot of money and a useful attitude toward spending it (on risky technology ventures) got cyclically concentrated over time.
Re: Spotify is letting employees work from anywhere while paying SF and NY salaries
#346Earlier quoted context omitted.
I've lived in both NYC and London (although not in London for years now). Housing is a hard one to compare. Your link mentions city center and out of city center. I'm not sure what that means exactly. The big issue with London is you have to go _far_ to get affordable housing and commute times are generally terrible. I'm not sure what the picture looks like now with Crossrail. The thing about New York is yes, Manhatt…
My experience of London: - There's little difference, time-wise, between being located in a town on commuter rail, vs somewhere three connections away on the tube. If you're inside the M25 but outside the North / South Circular, you need to be very close to a station or you're practically worse off than someone living in a town on the railway. - Motorcycles and scooters, and increasingly, electric bicycles, are the b…
I would be curious what the tech job market is like like in Zurich. Can you elaborate on that are you EU resident or have taken a job offer with a company based there?
Re: Spotify is letting employees work from anywhere while paying SF and NY salaries
#347Earlier quoted context omitted.
That works both ways though. The 6x places might move to, say, 4x over time, but the 1x and 2x places will salary upwards to compete. As someone who works in the Midwest USA, I don't see anything but upside for people like myself.
A company that goes fully remote might simply choose to close offices in the 4-6x places. > As someone who works in the Midwest USA, I don't see anything but upside for people like myself. I worked for a large tech company that started going remote before COVID. Once they started pulling out of expensive cities and opening offices in cheaper foreign countries, it became an uphill battle to hire anyone in the United S…
Wait till they discover all the competent English speaking engineers in South America
Re: Spotify is letting employees work from anywhere while paying SF and NY salaries
#348Earlier quoted context omitted.
I already only do 10 hours of work per week in this pandemic WFH. No one seems to notice. I’m L6 at google. Why not double down and get two “full time” jobs. I’ve heard from my friend in BoA that he works less than 1 hour per day. TC: 800k
How does one get TC 800K ($?) at Google L6? Did you get hired during a stock price collapse?
They could have refresher RSUs, they could have negotiated to stay on and move up, they could just be reporting what they took home after stock price appreciation, they could have offered something special
Re: Spotify is letting employees work from anywhere while paying SF and NY salaries
#349Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is why it will always be worth paying inflated salaries for FAANG companies. Taking all the top talent is a moat.
I've run a smart consulting business for 16 years now. I've watched over the years as many I've worked with have gone to FAANG. There may be opportunity costs involved, but there is no way FAANG can grab all of the top talent. Some of it is going to make its own way simply because they want to write their own rules.
They're pricing a budget out to rationalize an equity raise and are completely inept at what is necessary to get their highly specialized engineers.
Sure there are a lot of engineers working at noncompetitive companies making 80-180k and lower outside of the bay area.
But if you expect to spend less time on recruiting and less time on attritition for your skillset that only exists in the bay area or HFT firms, wake tf up!
Re: Spotify is letting employees work from anywhere while paying SF and NY salaries
#350Earlier quoted context omitted.
There's people scattered all over the country making 2x-3x rates that could have been earning 6x, but moving to San Fran or NYC was never a feasible option. The 6x companies will offer them 4x, settle on 4.5x, and both parties are happy. It will inevitably drive down the 6x pay, but drive up the 1x-3x pay. However, the companies will be the real winners though unless there's some type of coordination between all empl…
In a world where employees need to show up to 6X Co HQ everyday to work, the cost of living and the cost of hiring is directly linked (6x). But in a world where people can work anywhere, salaries will be disconnected from housing costs and we may see a lot of 6x companies happily slide lower. It will come down to how many employees meet the 6X Co's hiring bar and how good 6X Co is at turning new hires into productive…
They are not directly linked, and it is a harmful falsehood to perpetuate (sorry to single your specific comment out here -- I know lots of people are saying it.)
Would they pay you more if you moved to a more expensive area of the city, or less if you chose a bit cheaper? Would they pay you noticeably more in a year of higher than average inflation? Would they change your wage depending upon your marital status, which impacts expenses dramatically? At any point in setting your offer number, did they do calculations of your reasonable expenses, or ever take into account what type of lifestyle you lead? No.
If you are a software developer, you likely make enough to pay an average person's bills in your area, plus some luxuries, and then a bit more beyond. Likely enough to put away some savings over time. Was $YourCo just ... very generous in letting you have that amount of savings, compared to other industries, which pay less?
No. None of these are the case, because cost of living is not relevant to your salary, except to the small degree in which it factors into what the market (i.e. we) expects and will accept. That is where "region" has traditionally played a role, because low mobility between regions has historically made them into homogenous, isolated markets, which is where this falsehood can creep in.
So what really sets that number?
Industry salary reports, people's beliefs in 'the market trends', gossip about what other companies are offering, the acceptance rate they've had on offers in the recent past, your stated salary expectations, your experience level, the degree of specialization your role has, the importance of that role to them, their overall budget for hires, whether you negotiated or not, and whether or not you have competing offers you can play against them. All this boils down to "what they think you will accept, and how badly they want you." -- not your costs.
What happens when American employers starting hiring more and more in Europe/Africa/Asia? I'm not sure. I think fluent English communication skills, timezone affinity, cultural connection, and ease of travel to 'say hi' all form bits of moat, but those will certainly matter less and less with time.
In the near term, as SF+NYC start to allow remote work 'across North America', I think there are just way more jobs and companies looking than there are liquid engineers ready to move. Salaries might drop while we transition, but I really believe they'll go broadly as high as (or higher than) they were in those markets for a time, and this Spotify move is exactly why: the big players will now be competing for the best people everywhere, and the average carrying cost per employee, with no office requirements, is way down.
I definitely agree it's not simple to know where the market will fall in the long run. If European/African/Asian companies start correspondingly hiring here, that'll help North American engineers overall, but I'm not sure if we'll all end up at 1x, 3x, .5x, or what. It's easy to forget that there is room for an awful lot of software jobs in the world, especially, again if companies no longer need to pay for office space proportional to headcount. Some of these companies have a lot of money and were primarily constrained in the past by offices+office-inertia.
Regardless, 'cost of living' is not the root cause driving wages that people keep claiming it is, and when employees join in that lie, it hurts us.
It's all just what the markets of employers and employees are willing to bear, and what we should really be estimating as those isolated markets merge over the next decade is more like #qualified engineers / # potential software jobs, world-wide.