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I Love Coding on Linux

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Re: I Love Coding on Linux

#51

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet »

cycloptic wrote: post #49
AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can only offer you suggestions on what to do, Why are you doing that? I clearly neither asked for, nor want your suggestions! That's why you come off as an evangelist.

It seems like you were having trouble with your Linux filesystem so I'm offering solutions that I've seen or heard of. Is there something else I can offer that would work better for you, or am I misunderstanding what the complaint is? Edit: If you weren't asking for help with this that's fine, however some other interested reader may want to hear the suggestions. Feel free to ignore me.

I am deeply concerned about your inability to understand what is happening in this thread.

Let me break it down for you:

- User posts that they wish Windows filesystem organization was "nice" like Linux's

- I express doubt that anyone can consider Linux's filesystem organization "nice"

- You start telling me about AppImages and how even though very nearly every single distro on the planet organizes files a certain way, it isn't technically required to do so.

Please explain to me why you think your continued "help" and "suggestions" should be something I value? I am not "having trouble with my Linux filesystem organization", I am straight-up criticizing the way nearly every distro that exists organizes files. That's a very different thing.

Re: I Love Coding on Linux

#52

Post by pizza234 »

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #33
pizza234 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you refer, specifically? Based on "application's files all over the hierarchy" it seems you talk about configuration files (data files can be spread all over, in any operating system; binaries in Linux reside in a few directories (/opt and /usr)). If you refer to gconf/dconf, AFAIK they require a specialized tool but they're not scattered (you interact through the tool, after all, so they're centralized). Pos…

I mean literally the application and its files. A package for something like KeePassXC[0] places its assets, "shared" libraries, and binaries in disparate directories mixed with other applications binaries, assets, and libraries. [0] https://packages.ubuntu.com/groovy/amd64/keepassxc/filelist Configuration files are a whole 'nother garbage fire mess, but that's true in Windows too so whatever.

ok, you're referring to package management.

if you talk about configuration files, well behaved packages will differentiate removal and purge; the latter will remove configurations and data.

> [0] https://packages.ubuntu.com/groovy/amd64/keepassxc/filelist

what's wrong specifically with that? based on the list of files, the package is well-behaved, as it's placing the files in the expected locations (I personally didn't know about /usr/share/metainfo, but seems correct). also, it's not clear why the quotes in "shared" libraries; .so is a shared library extension, and it's proper design to make it available.

apt takes care of those files, so there's no problem. how it handles the data files should be described in the scripts, but this is up to the package maintainer.

Windows, for comparison, is hell, since applications install files pretty much where they want, and that's why Windows, in the long term, gets more polluted than Linux (worst offender - leftover DLL, which impact the system).

OS X could be the good reference for your isolation standards, but keep in mind that that level of isolation prevents reuse, and indeed, the open source package management reference is Brew, which has its own rules.

Re: I Love Coding on Linux

#53

Post by pengaru »

I too love coding on linux, and have been doing so exclusively since the 90s.

But I must admit there's quite a hill to climb before you're sufficiently steeped in this environment to feel like it's a welcoming home.

And it's not perfect, but nothing is. Just the other day I wanted to burn someone at the stake after wasting an hour rediscovering Debian broke /etc/vim/vimrc.local overrides of defaults.vim for users lacking a ~/.vimrc, while simultaneously making defaults.vim enable the absolute worst mouse settings anyone using vim for decades could ever be forced to use in an xterm.

But that's also an indication of how exceptional it has become for my GNU/Linux boxes to not behave precisely as I want and expect at all times. One little thing like that and it feels like the world has been turned upside down.

When you develop on and for a Libre OS like this long enough, it becomes part yours. I live in my own window manager, hacking mostly on my own projects, in an operating system running system code I've contributed to both professionally and personally. Whether that's a good or a bad thing, I'm really not sure. But it certainly facilitates a unique and strong relationship with the machine.

Re: I Love Coding on Linux

#54

Post by cycloptic »

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #51
cycloptic wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like you were having trouble with your Linux filesystem so I'm offering solutions that I've seen or heard of. Is there something else I can offer that would work better for you, or am I misunderstanding what the complaint is? Edit: If you weren't asking for help with this that's fine, however some other interested reader may want to hear the suggestions. Feel free to ignore me.

I am deeply concerned about your inability to understand what is happening in this thread. Let me break it down for you: - User posts that they wish Windows filesystem organization was "nice" like Linux's - I express doubt that anyone can consider Linux's filesystem organization "nice" - You start telling me about AppImages and how even though very nearly every single distro on the planet organizes files a certain wa…

Please don't make these insulting and condescending comments, this is against the site guidelines. If you think my understanding is wrong then just explain it, you don't have to insult me. Again, there are solutions to these problems and there are people who are working on making it "nice" for whatever your definition of that term is. AppImages (or really any similar packaging method) also technically run on very nearly every single distro on the planet so if those were improved, it seems like that would change some of your criticism. You don't have to value my suggestions, that's why they're suggestions and not requirements.

Although I guess I don't understand, where is your criticism coming from if not from a period of past or current frustration with the filesystem organization? I'm only responding to the criticism as you wrote it because I think there are ways that the core problem can be solved. From the point of view of how we solve it, it doesn't seem like it is a different thing. Does that make sense?

Re: I Love Coding on Linux

#55

Post by ur-whale »

swagonomixxx wrote: post #45
ur-whale wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OSX is still miles behind windows when it comes to debugging. I dislike windows with a passion (having had to code on it for ~5 years was torture), but I'm with you: debugging with Visual Studio was the best I've ever had (and I've coded on OSX, Windows, Linux, and other stranger things).

Visual Studio Code has an excellent visual debugger for Go. I'm certain it's the same experience for C/C++.

Does it have edit and continue?

Re: I Love Coding on Linux

#56

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet »

cycloptic wrote: post #54
AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am deeply concerned about your inability to understand what is happening in this thread. Let me break it down for you: - User posts that they wish Windows filesystem organization was "nice" like Linux's - I express doubt that anyone can consider Linux's filesystem organization "nice" - You start telling me about AppImages and how even though very nearly every single distro on the planet organizes files a certain wa…

Please don't make these insulting and condescending comments, this is against the site guidelines. If you think my understanding is wrong then just explain it, you don't have to insult me. Again, there are solutions to these problems and there are people who are working on making it "nice" for whatever your definition of that term is. AppImages (or really any similar packaging method) also technically run on very nea…

> Again, there are solutions to these problems and there are people who are working on making it "nice" for whatever your definition of that term is.

...which is irrelevant, because the original poster I was responding to is saying that the current standard is nice, and I was disagreeing.

Re: I Love Coding on Linux

#57

Post by [deleted] »

chr wrote: post #25
GuB-42 wrote: post #7

I also love coding on Linux, but there are shortcomings. Not enough to make me prefer Windows, but enough to make me wish for something better. Generally, Windows has better GUI-based tools. The big one being debuggers, I really miss debugging in Visual Studio (C++). But more generally, Windows tends to have a better selection of IDEs, database editors, version control GUIs, etc... I love command lines and text edito…

If Windows is a good GUI, how do I reliably swap caps lock and control?

[deleted]

Re: I Love Coding on Linux

#58

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet »

pizza234 wrote: post #52
AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean literally the application and its files. A package for something like KeePassXC[0] places its assets, "shared" libraries, and binaries in disparate directories mixed with other applications binaries, assets, and libraries. [0] https://packages.ubuntu.com/groovy/amd64/keepassxc/filelist Configuration files are a whole 'nother garbage fire mess, but that's true in Windows too so whatever.

ok, you're referring to package management. if you talk about configuration files, well behaved packages will differentiate removal and purge; the latter will remove configurations and data. > [0] https://packages.ubuntu.com/groovy/amd64/keepassxc/filelist what's wrong specifically with that? based on the list of files, the package is well-behaved, as it's placing the files in the expected locations (I personally did…

As I said, what's wrong is that organizing files in this way is that it necessitates something like a package manager to keep track of which files are associated with which applications. This is not a "nice" way to organize things, it's a needlessly complicated one as evidenced by the operating systems, both current and historical, that don't do that and don't need a package manager.

> Windows, for comparison, is hell, since applications install files pretty much where they want, and that's why Windows, in the long term, gets more polluted than Linux (worst offender - leftover DLL, which impact the system).

Applications rarely install files (other than configuration files) outside of their own 'Program Files' directory. What you are saying was true until about XP, IIRC, but generally isn't today.

In my opinion RiscOS, NeXT, the original MacOS and current MacOS have the right idea with their single-object applications. It prevents reuse, yes, but the majority of "shared" libraries are used by exactly one application anyway, and the continued interest in container technology are evidence of all the problems caused by trying to share everything anyway.

Re: I Love Coding on Linux

#59

Post by cycloptic »

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #56
cycloptic wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please don't make these insulting and condescending comments, this is against the site guidelines. If you think my understanding is wrong then just explain it, you don't have to insult me. Again, there are solutions to these problems and there are people who are working on making it "nice" for whatever your definition of that term is. AppImages (or really any similar packaging method) also technically run on very nea…

> Again, there are solutions to these problems and there are people who are working on making it "nice" for whatever your definition of that term is. ...which is irrelevant, because the original poster I was responding to is saying that the current standard is nice, and I was disagreeing.

So just to be clear, what would be relevant to you and what could be done to solve this? Since you already knew about AppImages and consider them a solution, could we say your criticism is essentially that not enough applications are using AppImages? (And if you were wondering, I am not associated with AppImages in any way, I'm just another person trying to talk to you about problems on Linux)

Re: I Love Coding on Linux

#60

Post by ryanklee »

ofrzeta wrote: post #36

That article is really weak as are most articles on opensource.com (some kind of content marketing site of Red Hat). I recount the following points as someone who has worked with Linux for many years and is using it on the Desktop as well as on servers at work but (or thus) has not lost his sense for reality: - the point of "automation" applies to all Unix-like systems. You probably could do the same with Powershell…

There's rampant *NIX provincialism out there that's blind to the reality that Windows is basically on par (and even innovative) as a dev environment. Just another form of self-serving elitism.
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