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Ask HN: Why are e-ink note-taking devices so expensive compared to iPads?

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161–170 of 276 posts

Re: Ask HN: Why are e-ink note-taking devices so expensive compared to iPads?

#161
post #10

I own a reMarkable 2. There is certainly enough to justify the cost, if you are a prolific note-taker. Conversely, I find it hard to justify the cost of an iPad, becuase I already have a phone and several laptops. I can't see a situation where a tablet would be more useful to me, so I've never bought one. Turns out different people have different needs, and the e-ink note-taking market caters to that. Most people wou…

Very interesting. I did the opposite reasoning - I also do lots of note taking, however, I preferred to have a more flexible device with OK note taking (in short, a 10" Android tablet), rather than narrow device with good note taking.

Re: Ask HN: Why are e-ink note-taking devices so expensive compared to iPads?

#162

Economies of scale?

Yeah, niche products feel like an education in how powerful economics of scale & competition really are. It's easy to understand conceptually without having a grasp of the magnitude. But take apart a $300 food dehydrator, and it's basically 1940's technology. The market just doesn't have competition or scale.

Gives me a new appreciation for why access to goods was so limited in the past.

Re: Ask HN: Why are e-ink note-taking devices so expensive compared to iPads?

#163
post #88

Throaway to not get sued. E-ink, the company, holds the patents of the pigment core tech that makes "paper-like" displays possible and strongarms the display manufacturers and the users of their displays to absolute silence. Any research project or startup that comes up with a better alternative technology gets bought out or buried by their lawyers ASAP. E-ink don't make the display themselves, they make the e-ink fi…

>the current consumption was astronomical, sometimes triggering the protection of the power supply on certain images That's surprising, since I was always under the impression that E-Ink displays were pretty low-power. Is it the drawing of the new image that requires so much energy in a small instant?

E-ink has no draw when static, but changing from white to black or back involves a physical state change that takes quite a lot of energy. Many eink readers rate their battery life in number of full screen refreshes.

Re: Ask HN: Why are e-ink note-taking devices so expensive compared to iPads?

#164
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seriously, I hope their patents expire ASAP. They're hampering the technological progress of e-paper devices with their iron grip on the technology.

I can see what you mean but on the other hand; are they really, though? If they hadn't come up with the technology and written the patents in the first place, we wouldn't even be here talking about it.

good answer

Re: Ask HN: Why are e-ink note-taking devices so expensive compared to iPads?

#165
post #135
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Got mine a week ago. I always take notes and draw mind maps while working on a project, so this fits perfectly. I like the pen and paper sensation, the fact that my handwriting is exactly the same as on paper, the ability to erase, rewrite, cut and paste. I don't like the flaky sync but love seeing my drawings as PDFs. The LiveView function almost doesn't work but a third party app allows me to display the tablet on…

> The LiveView function almost doesn't work but a third party app allows me to display the tablet on the desktop for Zoom meetings. What's the third party app?

I use https://github.com/bordaigorl/rmview to good effect, though it just occasionally stops working and I need to restart it to get it going again (I think it’s from brief USB connection blips, which can happen on the Surface Book for reasons I won’t go into but which won’t apply to almost any other hardware).

Re: Ask HN: Why are e-ink note-taking devices so expensive compared to iPads?

#166
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't necessarily disagree with you, but seeing as "the r word" is no longer used to refer to mentally disabled people it seems a little late to be campaigning to end its use as a pejorative _now_. If anything, these efforts should be directed towards ending the use of "autism" in a pejorative context, as if that trend isn't stopped then that term is up next on the euphemism treadmill. I also wonder if perhaps these…

It is still used as both a slur and a legitimate term. But even if #1 is false it's not up to neuro-typicals to decide if that word is 'fair game.' It is up to that community. And if they do reclaim the term like BIPOC we still have to understand and listen and not inject ourselves. Just like BIPOC use racist pejoratives - for many complex cultural reasons - it is not up to me/us a white guy to dictate or judge.

People of color can use their racist pejoratives all day long, but so will I. Because not allowing different skin-color people say the same things you can say is, well, racism.

Re: Ask HN: Why are e-ink note-taking devices so expensive compared to iPads?

#167
post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to have this problem, but I set up my ipad with parental control features so that I am unable to distract myself.

What stops you from unlocking the parental controls? If that’s not a recurring issue for you then you may not have an executive function disorder.

(I don't have a disorder, but) for me the case is often that I just mindlessly click my HN bookmark, open reddit app, lichess puzzle etc to kill a few minutes. Just the popup telling me that it's blocked is enough to make my brain realize what I'm about to do and abort. I could just click the button to override, but my "mindlessly browsing" mode got disturbed and suddenly I'm conscious about it happening.

Re: Ask HN: Why are e-ink note-taking devices so expensive compared to iPads?

#168

The company holding patents for e-ink is literally retarded, as if they don't want it to succeed. I'm not making this up. [1] Sure e-ink has its flaws, but wouldn't it be better to have a smaller slice of a much larger cake? OLED is patent encumbered too, there's also a patent holding company, despite that you can buy smallest modules for less than $2 on AliExpress. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22829798

Too afraid to post this on my main account.

I don't mind you using that word. It's a generic slur stripped of its original meaning. I use it all the time.

Re: Ask HN: Why are e-ink note-taking devices so expensive compared to iPads?

#169

Throaway to not get sued. E-ink, the company, holds the patents of the pigment core tech that makes "paper-like" displays possible and strongarms the display manufacturers and the users of their displays to absolute silence. Any research project or startup that comes up with a better alternative technology gets bought out or buried by their lawyers ASAP. E-ink don't make the display themselves, they make the e-ink fi…

I understand where you are coming from. I have a love-hate relationship with patents. That said, I try not to pass judgement on such things until I fully understand the story (not saying you don't).

For example, if a technology took ten years and ten billion dollars to develop to the point of it being commercially viable, well, yeah, a patent-protected monopoly is likely the ethically correct privilege the inventors should be granted.

An example (out of many) of bullshit patents and monopolies that should have never been granted are the horseshit patents Color Kinetics got years ago. These people had the audacity to patent the use of pulse-width-modulation to control the intensity of LEDs and make lights that could produce different colors. The patent office granted these people patent after patent. Once they had enough they started to attack the entire LED industry. Philips ended-up acquiring them. They let the industry know they would not enforce the bullshit patents. Still, the crooks took their thievery all the way to the bank.

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As for the relative cost of LCD's vs. E-ink. I think the primary difference is very simple: Volume. I haven't done the numbers, but I think I can say that the LCD industry is at least 1,000 times larger in volume. It's like the LCD vs. OLED comparison. Volume is king.

Another element is the tooling-up for manufacturing. A modern LCD manufacturing plant runs in the billions. Two billion dollars the last time I checked, but I haven't been in the industry for ten years and have lost touch. You are not going to take a multi-billion-dollar factory and slice-off a corner to make e-ink displays. These factories are highly automated and tuned machines. They are designed to make millions of displays per month.

This means that making e-ink displays requires putting-up a specialized factory or retooling an old LCD factory that might no-longer be competitive for making LCD's. Regardless of the approach, this is likely to be a very expensive undertaking. That, coupled with lower volume, is guaranteed to translate into higher prices.

Disclaimer: I was in the high performance display business for ten years. Exited a decade ago. So, yeah, I am a little disconnected as to the latest and greatest and what might be new in manufacturing. That said, I get the sense that material changes haven't been as significant in the last ten years as they were during the prior ten.

Re: Ask HN: Why are e-ink note-taking devices so expensive compared to iPads?

#170
post #135
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Got mine a week ago. I always take notes and draw mind maps while working on a project, so this fits perfectly. I like the pen and paper sensation, the fact that my handwriting is exactly the same as on paper, the ability to erase, rewrite, cut and paste. I don't like the flaky sync but love seeing my drawings as PDFs. The LiveView function almost doesn't work but a third party app allows me to display the tablet on…

> The LiveView function almost doesn't work but a third party app allows me to display the tablet on the desktop for Zoom meetings. What's the third party app?

I'm using https://github.com/bordaigorl/rmview. It does occasionally need to be restarted to work but other than that it's been pretty stable.
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