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Ask HN: Why are e-ink note-taking devices so expensive compared to iPads?

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11–20 of 276 posts

Re: Ask HN: Why are e-ink note-taking devices so expensive compared to iPads?

#11
post #7

The company holding patents for e-ink is literally retarded, as if they don't want it to succeed. I'm not making this up. [1] Sure e-ink has its flaws, but wouldn't it be better to have a smaller slice of a much larger cake? OLED is patent encumbered too, there's also a patent holding company, despite that you can buy smallest modules for less than $2 on AliExpress. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22829798

Are those $2 Chinese modules really paying to license the patent?

I have to say: I don't know, but royalties may be also paid by upstream suppliers, as there are patents on specific chemicals. There's a chance these chemicals are made e.g. in Japan.

Re: Ask HN: Why are e-ink note-taking devices so expensive compared to iPads?

#13
I think e-ink screens would be great for musicians too! A lot of musicians are using iPad Pro, but I personally would rather have a dual screen e-ink device like this (for better battery life, better readability): https://www.gvidomusic.com/ ($1600!!)

First company to build something like this and bring the cost down to something a bit more reasonable will get my business.

Re: Ask HN: Why are e-ink note-taking devices so expensive compared to iPads?

#14
Throaway to not get sued.

E-ink, the company, holds the patents of the pigment core tech that makes "paper-like" displays possible and strongarms the display manufacturers and the users of their displays to absolute silence. Any research project or startup that comes up with a better alternative technology gets bought out or buried by their lawyers ASAP.

E-ink don't make the display themselves, they make the e-ink film, filled with their patented pigment particles and sell it to display manufacturers who package the film in glass and a TFT layer and add a driver interface chip, all of which are proprietary AF and unless you're the size of Amazon, forget about getting any detailed datasheets about how to correctly drive their displays to get sharp images.

In my previous company we had to reverse engineer their waveforms in order to build usable products even though we were buying quite a lot of displays.

With so much control over the IP and the entire supply chain and due to the broken nature of the patent system, they're an absolute monopoly and have no incentive to lower prices or to bring any innovations to the market and are a textbook example of what happens to technology when there is zero competition.

So, when you see the high prices of e-paper gadgets, don't blame the manufacturers, as they're not price gouging, blame E-ink, as their displays make up the bulk of the BOM.

Tough, some of their tech is pretty dope. One day E-ink sent over a 32" 1440p prototype panel with 32 shades of B&W to show off. My God, was the picture gorgeous and sharp. I would have loved to have it as a PC monitor so I tried building an HDMI interface controller for it with an FPGA but failed due to a lack of time and documentation. Shame, although not a big loss as an estimated cost for that was near the five figure ballpark and the current consumption was astronomical, sometimes triggering the protection of the power supply on certain images.

Re: Ask HN: Why are e-ink note-taking devices so expensive compared to iPads?

#15

I remember buying my first LCD display in the CRT era. It was tiny, thick, ugly, and of course expensive. Now they’re cheap and everywhere. The same will happen with e-ink in time. Honestly I would rather have the iPad for note taking. Response times are important for rapid idea translation, and e-ink systems are very lacking here, whereas the iPad is not. Probably an unpopular opinion, but it’s my own experience.

Response time (i.e. pen touch to pixel appearing) on the latest generation of e-ink devices is literally imperceptible, though I believe they've had to cut a few minor corners to get it to that level.

Re: Ask HN: Why are e-ink note-taking devices so expensive compared to iPads?

#16

I think e-ink screens would be great for musicians too! A lot of musicians are using iPad Pro, but I personally would rather have a dual screen e-ink device like this (for better battery life, better readability): https://www.gvidomusic.com/ ($1600!!) First company to build something like this and bring the cost down to something a bit more reasonable will get my business.

Musicians often don't have all that much money though, so unless this device cost less than maybe $200 it's a very hard sell.

Re: Ask HN: Why are e-ink note-taking devices so expensive compared to iPads?

#17
I have a Boyue Likebook Ares - it cost £190. https://shkspr.mobi/blog/2019/11/gadget-review-boyue-likeboo...

It has an 8inch screen - about the same size as the iPad mini. It runs Android 8 but, obviously, some apps work better than others. It came with several nibs for its pencil.

They have an 10 inch version for around £230. See https://goodereader.com/blog/electronic-readers/boyue-p10-is...

So, there are some cheapish, largeish, eInk devices out there.

I was told (and I have no way to back it up) that the yields on eInk are fairly low. They make a couple of square metres of screen, and then have to cut it to size. Because of defects in the process, they can have a lot of wastage. So the larger sizes are disproportionally more expensive.

Re: Ask HN: Why are e-ink note-taking devices so expensive compared to iPads?

#18

The company holding patents for e-ink is literally retarded, as if they don't want it to succeed. I'm not making this up. [1] Sure e-ink has its flaws, but wouldn't it be better to have a smaller slice of a much larger cake? OLED is patent encumbered too, there's also a patent holding company, despite that you can buy smallest modules for less than $2 on AliExpress. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22829798

I agree completely with your points, and I'm sorry be that guy, but "literally retarded" is offensive language and is frankly below the level of discourse of HN. I'm not one to be the PC police but really, come on. You can make your argument without resulting to slurs like that.

https://www.verywellfamily.com/what-is-the-r-word-3105651

Re: Ask HN: Why are e-ink note-taking devices so expensive compared to iPads?

#19
post #16

I think e-ink screens would be great for musicians too! A lot of musicians are using iPad Pro, but I personally would rather have a dual screen e-ink device like this (for better battery life, better readability): https://www.gvidomusic.com/ ($1600!!) First company to build something like this and bring the cost down to something a bit more reasonable will get my business.

Musicians often don't have all that much money though, so unless this device cost less than maybe $200 it's a very hard sell.

Even the broke musicians I know have thousands to tens of thousands of dollars in gear.

Re: Ask HN: Why are e-ink note-taking devices so expensive compared to iPads?

#20
post #9
post #2

My guess, from ignorance: the volumes are way lower vs traditional tablets, thinning margins and driving retail price up. Niche devices almost always cost more.

I don’t think they still be niche if they were competitive with LCDs in other aspects, most importantly color gamut and ability to show video (I think longevity and power usage already are competitive, if not more than so). So, why? Are they inherently more difficult or expensive to manufacture, do they use materials that are too rare?

The way e-ink works is quite different from an LCD. They didn't even get color until recently.

Personally, I think the benefits of reflective reading surfaces (ie e-ink) over backlit reading surfaces (everything else) is massively overblown. I have an e-ink tablet now that they are >300ppi and it's nice to read on, but it's a novelty. Some people love 'em, but that hasn't stopped the iPad Pro from outselling all of the e-ink tablets by a huge factor. I think e-ink's future is mainly in small/low power/ambient displays, like price tags or luggage tags.

Most people read most things off of their phones or tablets and it's just fine.

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