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US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

reuters.com

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Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#621

Post by bondarchuk »

bbatha wrote: post #606
bondarchuk wrote: post #521

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Similarly smallpox has been completely eradicated, but USA and Russia like to keep around a few live samples, "for research". Whatever will wipe us all out in the end, we probably had it coming. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smallpox_virus_retention_debat...

It’s substantially more complicated than that smallpox samples keep turning up in the US [1][2]. Who knows how many samples were lost in the chaos of the fall of the Soviet Union. Smallpox was in every country on earth until relatively recently simply destroying samples isn’t enough. Hanging onto them in case we need a new vaccine is absolutely prudent. https://www.wired.com/2014/07/cdc-found-pox/ https://www.history…

If there is an actual outbreak that we need a vaccine for, we can just get new samples from the infected, right?

Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#622

Post by qubit000 »

dragonwriter wrote: post #617
qubit000 wrote: post #616

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the CCP is the governing body of China which is a sovereign entity. CCP contains multiple factions representing all facets of society hence 90M+ membership who do not all agree and have agendas. What distinguishes CCP from western governments is that party membership and advancement is based on meritocracy not populism resulting in only the most qualified/accomplished rising to positions of leadership.

> What distinguishes CCP from western governments is that party membership and advancement is based on meritocracy not populism What makes the CCP like the West, though it's different in other ways, is that advancement in the CCP is based largely on the convenience of your views and actions to the established elites, which is only “meritocracy” to the extent that “advancing the interests of the established elites” is…

No, the meritocracy is actually defined by performance/KPIs which determine advancement. For example all party members must first pass 2 tests before acceptance as members than work at local rural level to advance from there.

There is no concept of 'established elites' because even the poorest can rise to top as President Xi has.

Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#623

Post by mkolodny »

tim333 wrote: post #530
bhawks wrote: post #466

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Although I am there with you in spirit, a global ban is effectively meaningless. It is unenforceable from the start. All the major world powers would continue their research (perhaps slightly less openly) simply from a MAD angle (it is irresponsible to ignore the value of a pathogen that no one else has seen and you have the antibiotics for). We are living in dark times in terms of our technological capability and th…

Most of the gain of function research is either well meaning to understand disease or part of normal science published in journals. Banning it would reduce the amount done greatly.

Even if these researchers have good intentions, they're human, and humans make mistakes. If someone doing gain-of-function research lets a new deadly virus or bacteria out into the wild by mistake, their mistake can can cause a pandemic like the one we're currently suffering from.

I don't think there's anything that we could learn from gain-of-function research on deadly viruses and bacteria that would be worth risking millions of deaths.

Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#624

Post by astrange »

rlt wrote: post #600
astrange wrote: post #429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What? Of course it matters. If it was accidentally released from a lab, those responsible should be held accountable so it’s less likely to happen again. Because it doesn't matter if it's accidentally released from a lab, if you're going to catch it from a bat cave anyway. You haven't eliminated it from the world.

If it’s equally likely, I’ll gladly take half as many pandemics by eliminating one source of them.

It wouldn't be equally likely since the lab is a single source. It's normal for caves and pig farms and such to spread diseases like this - usually it's new kinds of flu but sometimes it's worse.

To me it seems like the lab escape story has only developed because of journalist brain. It's convenient if you'll only accept a narrative that involves blaming a human and not a natural system.

Anyway, the story doesn't seem to be developing in that direction:

https://www.cnn.com/2021/02/14/health/who-mission-china-intl...

I like how the WHO investigator calls the original patient "dull and normal".

Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#625

Post by onethought »

meowface wrote: post #397
onethought wrote: post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there are a couple of conflations in the 'lab leak' meme. - China intentionally manufactured the virus and released it (Proven false, virus wasn't engineered) - China accidentally released the virus while collecting it (Possible, but unlikely given the virus has early evidence away from both collection point and Wuhan Lab) - China has too many wet markets that allowed the virus to mutate enough for human jump…

>- China intentionally manufactured the virus and released it (Proven false, virus wasn't engineered) The most common lab leak hypothesis I've seen is that it was engineered during gain-of-function research and then accidentally leaked. The fallacy is just that the only reason someone would engineer a virus would be to weaponize it. Gain-of-function research is regularly done to study and combat viruses. So just beca…

But they have found the virus in bats... it’s not engineered. Yes there are lots of legitimate reasons to study viruses.

Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#626

Post by [deleted] »

tremon wrote: post #555
mkolodny wrote: post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a real possibility that a gain-of-function experiment created SARS-CoV-2: "Lipsitch’s activists (calling themselves the Cambridge Working Group) sent around a strong statement on the perils of research with “Potential Pandemic Pathogens,” signed by more than a hundred scientists. The work might “trigger outbreaks that would be difficult or impossible to control,” the signers said. Fauci reconsidered, and the…

there should be a global ban on gain-of-function experiments on deadly viruses and bacteria. Would you make the same argument for software vulnerability research? I think the arguments against both are the same, and with the same result: white-hat researchers will halt their work, leaving more of the field available to black-hat researcers.

[deleted]

Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#627

Post by yters »

ummonk wrote: post #284
yters wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the lab scenario their lax standards wiped out 2 million people and they covered it up. In the wet market scenario, it mostly reflects on the local inhabitants doing the usual black market stuff most local inhabitants of most countries do, and the CCP can only do so much to control their people. Plus, lab source has many other possible implications that are concerning, e.g. engineering bioweapons, IP theft, more n…

What faked dataset are you referring to? The bat source was sequenced several years ago after guano harvesters fell sick. And the most likely lab scenario actually involves either gain of function research on that sample or that sample being exposed to animals and / or humans where it recombined to allow human to human transmission.

Here's the tweet: https://twitter.com/bioinformer/status/1252813532850081792

"Mislabeled SRA entry is one thing but - it’s clear that it’s impossible (in my hands at least with a -very good- pipeline) to assemble the reference that is in GenBank from the data in SRA"

Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#628

Post by dirtyid »

lenkite wrote: post #567
em500 wrote: post #455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This paints a rather colored picture. The initial advisory from 14 Jan 2020 [1] presents their case that "Based on the available information there is no clear evidence of human-to-human transmission." The reader can decide if that was a fair assesment at the time. The text was followed by "Additional investigation is needed to ascertain the presence of human-to-human transmission, modes of transmission, common source…

It's not just 14th Jan. The WHO had more than sufficient data at its disposal to avoid making misleading statements. All warnings from Taiwan in December were actively ignored. https://www.business-standard.com/article/news-ani/taiwan-wa... https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3904054 Please note that the WHO confirmation statement on 22nd Jan came about after independent confirmation of human to human transmission…

Taiwan's "warnings" were redundant information already provided by PRC - they had no unique observations. Their first case of covid was imported on Jan 21st. They didn't know shit about epidemiological characteristics of virus outside of what was communicated between medical professionals until then. Even Taiwanese media thought H2H chance was low mid January, and Taiwanese CDC didn't believe evidence for H2H was possible to establish until after mid Jan. Any notion that Taiwan had anything useful to warn about in December is part of a _literal_ propaganda drive coordinated by Taiwan and Pompeo's State Department in late March / early April.

https://archive.is/2AdyB

https://apnews.com/article/a0b22f45f0cbc8e83e7d496dd2e09556

China cracked down harshly and sufficiently that countries that immediately listened to WHOs advice to test/trace/isolate managed to contain the virus well because very few cases ever made it abroad as seen in import cases statistics from many countries. Expatriation flights meant leakage was inevitable, but screening procedures were mostly theatre, temperature checks instead of 14day quarantines. The problem is very few countries listened to WHO's advice, and still don't.

Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#629

Post by dirtyid »

underseacables wrote: post #597
reducesuffering wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure they realize it, but what's the alternative for them? "Yes, come right in, here's our primary source data collected, it concludes that Chernobyl (or WIV lab leak) did happen..."

That right there would do more to improve Chinese international relations and faith in the Chinese government than anything they could possibly do otherwise. Hands-down. That is what the world demands, and if they wish to be a global player, they are going to half to get along with everyone else

No, all China has to do is push the origin investigation towards a South Asian country like Laos, Cambodia or Vietnam with large wild game trade. It's scientifically plausible and something Chinese science community suspected / deflected towards early in the outbreak.

Suddenly China's rapid detection and extreme lockdown would literally be properly contextualized as buying the world time, and the Chinese system would be validated beyond measure.

Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#630

Post by AshWolfy »

GauntletWizard wrote: post #295
AshWolfy wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

a lot of this is just really bad, like just off the top of my head 96 percent related genetics is not very much, thats the same similarity between humans and monkeys

96% of human vs monkey DNA similarly is not a lot, because most of that DNA is shared throughout all of the animal kingdom. Since human DNA is close to a billion codons long, the remaining 4% is still tens of millions of codons. COVID-19 is ~30,000 base pairs long (10,000) codons. The 4% difference is 400 codons. That's not a lot. There are many singular proteins longer than that. Is that proof? No, the same way grav…

A theory is something that has been rigorously tested, this is speculation, and shaky speculation at best. Id be willing to bet sars and covid 19 have a similar level of genetic similarity

or other things like assuming someone is dead based on the fact that they dont have a picture online and dont wanna talk to press

ive seen youtube conspiracy videos more convincing

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