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US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

reuters.com

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Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#531

Post by einpoklum »

bhawks wrote: post #466
mkolodny wrote: post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a real possibility that a gain-of-function experiment created SARS-CoV-2: "Lipsitch’s activists (calling themselves the Cambridge Working Group) sent around a strong statement on the perils of research with “Potential Pandemic Pathogens,” signed by more than a hundred scientists. The work might “trigger outbreaks that would be difficult or impossible to control,” the signers said. Fauci reconsidered, and the…

Although I am there with you in spirit, a global ban is effectively meaningless. It is unenforceable from the start. All the major world powers would continue their research (perhaps slightly less openly) simply from a MAD angle (it is irresponsible to ignore the value of a pathogen that no one else has seen and you have the antibiotics for). We are living in dark times in terms of our technological capability and th…

There are very strong controls on experiments on humans, for example, and they seem to work, for the most part. Governments may circumvent them in secret, but when it's found out people were experimented on, there's a scandal.

So, while it may not be 100% foolproof, it would be quite meaningful.

Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#532

Post by tim333 »

raverbashing wrote: post #447
mkolodny wrote: post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a real possibility that a gain-of-function experiment created SARS-CoV-2: "Lipsitch’s activists (calling themselves the Cambridge Working Group) sent around a strong statement on the perils of research with “Potential Pandemic Pathogens,” signed by more than a hundred scientists. The work might “trigger outbreaks that would be difficult or impossible to control,” the signers said. Fauci reconsidered, and the…

It could be. But that I find extremely unlikely A failed experiment? Maybe a bit more likely, but still I don't think so Sars-Cov-2 looks like pretty much what it is: a zoonotic virus that "doesn't know what's going on" Hence why only the recent mutations made its transmission more efficient. Now, if it escaped unbeknownst from a research lab, that I would put on the plausible category. Would be more possible if it w…

>Sars-Cov-2 looks like pretty much what it is: a zoonotic virus that "doesn't know what's going on"

It was actually remarkably stable in the early days suggesting it was used to reproducing in human cells. Or so Professor Petrovsky says https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8356751/How-COVID-1...

As how that could have happened lab wise here's Daszak saying they routinely infect human cells with coronavirus in the lab https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=1701&v=IdYDL_RK--w&feature=y...

Or maybe it was in humans a bit before it took off. I see Daszak's kind of changed his tune a bit these days to not mention anything like that lab stuff.

Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#533

Post by edanm »

lrem wrote: post #516
edanm wrote: post #435

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't it depend on what we find? For the most probable outcomes, it's about improving (whether it's a lab escape that requires tightening how labs work, or a natural origin that requires, well, something). Of course, if theoretically this or another pathogen was discovered to be human-made / engineered on purpose (not a real scenario in this case! Purely a hypothetical), then obviously it might have "holding someon…

The "on purpose" bit seems highly implausible. AFAIU the ones with the means would have been the Chinese national labs and maybe their US collaborators. But releasing this right in their backyard would be an implausibly idiotic move on the Chinese part. Planting it by the US would both be terribly hard and a predictable own goal.

Just to be clear, I completely agree with you. That's why I said:

> engineered on purpose (not a real scenario in this case! Purely a hypothetical).

Because I'm thinking of future scenarios where this kind of thing happens and we want to uncover the truth, and in which it's more likely to be on purpose. Probably more relevant to a nuclear strike or cyber attack or whatever than a biological weapon, given collateral damage.

Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#534

Post by AmericanChopper »

buran77 wrote: post #528
AmericanChopper wrote: post #515

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then The WHO should be saying "we can't eliminate the possibility of a lab origin because China is engaging in a massive coverup and won't let us investigate anything" rather than "Laboratory contamination can be excluded because...".

If that is indeed their conclusion then yes, it should say that, perhaps in a somewhat less biased phrasing. In a similar vein, the Reuters title might be called "US government with extremely poor transparency track record raises deep self-serving hypocritical concerns over international report that doesn't paint US enemy in a bad enough light".

Media biases are a different issue. The WHO’s problem is that it’s supposed to be a politically neutral internationally governing body, and It’s conduct during the pandemic has lead many people to believe that it is operating according to a political agenda. The damage The WHO (and other public health institutions) have done to their trustworthiness has already had will continue to have serious consequences going forward. Anti-vaxx has never been so popular.

Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#535

Post by foolmeonce »

vinay427 wrote: post #491
cma wrote: post #463

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the state level you had that dashboard whistleblower scientist jailed.

That's not the same administration. It's perhaps an issue that could have also happened in many other states in the US, but the comment was about the Trump administration.

That's really about timing. If it was earlier in his administration then leadership within the CDC, FDA, etc wouldn't have avoided blunter disagreement with chloroquine enema man. As it is they risked a major public safety crisis to keep their jobs, perhaps on the theory that whoever he would hire to replace them would be an active safety threat.

Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#536

Post by robin21 »

f430 wrote: post #17
mgamache wrote: post #4

Related: China refused to provide WHO team with raw data on early COVID cases, https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-who-ch...

If the CCP is innocent why not prove it to the world by sharing their data? Why hide things?

Why didn’t Obama immediately share birth certificate during birther stuff?

Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#537

Post by Hnrobert42 »

alasdair_ wrote: post #426
duxup wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's been a problem even internally in China where local government hides things from those up the chain and then things get out of hand.

A madman with a gun is only ever told things that stop him from pulling the trigger. This is true of any hierarchical power structure, but is especially bad in overtly authoritarian ones.

If we accept your premise about madmen, then this

> This is true of any hierarchical power structure

is only true if everyone in the hierarchy is a madman.

Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#538

Post by tim333 »

petre wrote: post #458
duxup wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's been a problem even internally in China where local government hides things from those up the chain and then things get out of hand.

It's exactly like in Chernobyl's case, only the Soviets couldn't cover up the cause and got their act together when everybody found out.

I'm often reminded of Chernobyl by the Wuhan stuff.

Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#539

Post by tim333 »

kmonsen wrote: post #276
starpilot wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Trump circles, the narrative has been "FUCK CHINA FOR THIS VIRUS" since day 1. Seriously, this has their mantra the entire pandemic. Everything from being a lab virus to lying about numbers are what they've discussed. Really funny to see them on the same page with some Chinese.

Although disagree with almost everything about trump, I think he was in some way right about China. I don’t think it has anything to do with the Chinese people though. Also, I don’t think he went about it in an effective way at all, it seems like the ccp was betting on him just going away after a while and just suffering the pain for a while.

Indeed the Chinese countries outside China - Taiwan and Singapore have dealt with things very well and openly.

Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#540

Post by [deleted] »

bhawks wrote: post #466
mkolodny wrote: post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a real possibility that a gain-of-function experiment created SARS-CoV-2: "Lipsitch’s activists (calling themselves the Cambridge Working Group) sent around a strong statement on the perils of research with “Potential Pandemic Pathogens,” signed by more than a hundred scientists. The work might “trigger outbreaks that would be difficult or impossible to control,” the signers said. Fauci reconsidered, and the…

Although I am there with you in spirit, a global ban is effectively meaningless. It is unenforceable from the start. All the major world powers would continue their research (perhaps slightly less openly) simply from a MAD angle (it is irresponsible to ignore the value of a pathogen that no one else has seen and you have the antibiotics for). We are living in dark times in terms of our technological capability and th…

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