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US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

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Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, yes, that was early March. The guidelines evolved as more information became available and they released new advice in early April, which is far from ideal but better than a lot of governments reactions. Their official stance before that was rigorous test, isolate, and trace, which was not done seriously anywhere outside China.

Well, mask early may not have been the best choice of words then. Taiwan's reaction would qualify as early. And Taiwan is the thing that the WHO has been very conspicuously be silent about even when asked explicitly. https://twitter.com/fu7371/status/1262786140777545728

I agree. They did not advise to mask early on (airborne transmission was still largely unproved around May, if I remember correctly).

In my mind it was ‘mask before the apparition of symptoms’, and I realise that my wording was not ideal in the context.

Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think anyone wants the WHO to be powerful . They want the WHO to be honest . And they aren't. But that isn't the WHO's fault or anyone working there. It's a property of what the WHO is.

> They want the WHO to be honest. And they aren't They are working with what they have, which comes from governments and governmental health agencies. If they don’t have information, they say ‘we don’t know’, even though everyone knows that the most likely scenario involves emergence in China. If one wants them to be able to coerce information out of China, then by definition it would need to be more powerful.

If they are "working with what they have", then they should not speak from a position of authority.

Authority is derived from something being something that everyone has. In the past, achieving that goal practically guaranteed authenticity to within a comfortable enough quanta for everyone to work with.

With more advanced remote sensing equipment, the decreased cost to publish, reach one can attain for relatively little cost nowadays, that is no longer a luxury we can all afford to continue to entertain. We must all see with our own eyes. In the case that is frustrated or made impossible, it should not a surprise that the world acts as badly as it does.

This is why the collective lie is the most powerful weapon fielded by modern civilization, and why there is such a jockeying for control of what the definition of allowable evidence is. Perception management is a weapon of mass destruction, and should be called out for what it is.

Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> If the Western world would have done what the WHO advised at the time, we all more or less would have a COVID stuation like the Chinese have for some time. > Mask early Are we living in the same timeline? https://twitter.com/WHO/status/1243972193169616898 https://twitter.com/UNGeneva/status/1244661916535930886 https://twitter.com/WHO/status/1234095938555260929 https://twitter.com/WHO/status/1234871709091667969 htt…

Right, yes, that was early March. The guidelines evolved as more information became available and they released new advice in early April, which is far from ideal but better than a lot of governments reactions. Their official stance before that was rigorous test, isolate, and trace, which was not done seriously anywhere outside China.

There was a concerted effort from government officials, bandwagon-joining academics (aided by journalists) in the West to downplay masking, and to ridicule and shame those who wore masks. Here is a Time article from eary March where it was described as the equivalent of “knocking on wood”. https://time.com/5794729/coronavirus-face-masks/

I am fairly certain that the US government reversed itself on masks before the WHO did (Wikipedia says WHO changed its advice in June).

Did it have to do with a lack of evidence, or was it a cynical ploy to preserve mask stocks for medical professionals? I recall it being the latter: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/17/opinion/coronavirus-face-...

Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#154
post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mask early, serious lockdown as soon as it becomes serious, and don’t end lockdowns before numbers are way low. We masked late, put lockdowns in place late if at all, and ended them way too early, which means that some countries went through several ones. And we’re not through yet. That said, I don’t share the optimism of the parent poster. This would be a heavy burden in terms of freedom and human rights for a resul…

I am curious about this “pro-lockdown, pro-mask” advice from ethe WHO. I am almost certain that they took a long time to recommend masking. I also am fairly confident that the WHO was/is opposed to lockdowns and it certainly still opposes travel restrictions.

> I am almost certain that they took a long time to recommend masking.

They did. Initially they recommended testing and isolating (which obviously could not scale much). Their guidelines were still happily ignored as they were updated, though.

Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#155
post #53

First gen Chinese, grew up in NA. Have contact with relatives "on the ground". My own experience: Don't ever trust the Chinese government on issues that could potentially involve the reputation of the party. Note that I'm not saying don't trust what CCP says, ever (sometimes they actually do good things) - just not on issues that involve anything to do with how the world might perceive them. Which is exactly what thi…

Do we / did we even have the tech co be able to build this in a lab? I don't think we do. It MIGHT have been possible but Occam's Razor says it's more plausible it evolved naturally and just jumped species. FAR FAR FAR more plausible.

“Building” the virus is a sleight of hand that people use to discredit the lab theory.

More likely than building the virus is studying it and accelerating it’s development.

Now I’m not saying that’s what happened here however without the cooperation of the CCP we’ll have no idea what the truth of the matter is

Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#156
post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But we did have data from cruise ships early in 2020 which showed that deaths were heavily age-specific, and that the death and hospitalization forecasts from organisations like Oxford were highly inaccurate. Yet for some reason the West seemed intent on pursuing lockdowns, demonising countries like Sweden and Belarus which didn't. Hospitals have never been overloaded (apart from places like New York where symptomati…

Yes, (((they))) made up the election votes so Biden would win. Absolutely. It definitely cannot be that Trump never polled more than 50% nationwide and lost his initial vote by nearly 3 million. You've cracked the code! Downvoters: Facts don't care about your feelings, any evidence of wrongdoing?

It doesn't really matter if the votes were legitimate or not. Just by changing to postal voting you alter the demographics of the voting base in ways which can change the outcome.

Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#157
post #53

First gen Chinese, grew up in NA. Have contact with relatives "on the ground". My own experience: Don't ever trust the Chinese government on issues that could potentially involve the reputation of the party. Note that I'm not saying don't trust what CCP says, ever (sometimes they actually do good things) - just not on issues that involve anything to do with how the world might perceive them. Which is exactly what thi…

Do we / did we even have the tech co be able to build this in a lab? I don't think we do. It MIGHT have been possible but Occam's Razor says it's more plausible it evolved naturally and just jumped species. FAR FAR FAR more plausible.

There was a great article in New York Magazine covering the background here and the possibilities.

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/coronavirus-lab-esca...

It turns out we've been doing "serial passage" research for some time, which is where we leverage natural selection to do our genetic engineering for us, rather than manually editing genes. This is how we engineer viruses to jump species - on purpose.

> They did it using serial passaging: repeatedly dosing a mixed solution of mouse cells and hamster cells with mouse-hepatitis virus, while each time decreasing the number of mouse cells and upping the concentration of hamster cells. At first, predictably, the mouse-hepatitis virus couldn’t do much with the hamster cells, which were left almost free of infection, floating in their world of fetal-calf serum. But by the end of the experiment, after dozens of passages through cell cultures, the virus had mutated: It had mastered the trick of parasitizing an unfamiliar rodent.

In fact, "we" (meaning humanity) have even been experimenting with serial passage into humans.

> A few years later, in a further round of “interspecies transfer” experimentation, Baric’s scientists introduced their mouse coronavirus into flasks that held a suspension of African-green-monkey cells, human cells, and pig-testicle cells. Then, in 2002, they announced something even more impressive: They’d found a way to create a full-length infectious clone of the entire mouse-hepatitis genome. Their “infectious construct” replicated itself just like the real thing, they wrote.

The whole article is really worth a read.

Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#158
post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The WHO disclosed they were blocked. You can infer a bayesian for a lab release of this specific virus. Now what does that change about the next pandemic?

The lab leak is not the only hypothesis the CCP may be seeking to avoid. What they knew and how early they knew it is at least as significant.

So the fact that China didn't cooperate should affect future health policy?

edit- make China/cooperate more explicit.

Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#159
post #115
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Don't ever trust the Chinese government on issues that could potentially involve the reputation of the party Seems this holds true for every government and party.

The difference is there is no opposition to question the official stance. So I’d say it’s naive to imply the same holds true everywhere. Even Russia and Turkey have vocal dissidents.

Last time I checked Turkey is still democracy. A better example would be Egypt or KSA or UAE.

Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#160
post #53

First gen Chinese, grew up in NA. Have contact with relatives "on the ground". My own experience: Don't ever trust the Chinese government on issues that could potentially involve the reputation of the party. Note that I'm not saying don't trust what CCP says, ever (sometimes they actually do good things) - just not on issues that involve anything to do with how the world might perceive them. Which is exactly what thi…

Do we / did we even have the tech co be able to build this in a lab? I don't think we do. It MIGHT have been possible but Occam's Razor says it's more plausible it evolved naturally and just jumped species. FAR FAR FAR more plausible.

You can, with your own body, the right drug regimen, and starting with just garden variety TB and no skills whatsoever, "build" XDR TB.

The general evidence is this is yet another reason why wet markets are terrible for humanity, not that it was made in a lab and got away. But you can build lots of things.

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