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US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

reuters.com

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Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#91

Post by LMYahooTFY »

Supermancho wrote: post #46
endisneigh wrote: post #21

Forgive my ignorance but even if it was lab created, so what? I don’t really understand why it matters or not. Didn’t the entire world basically have a nearly 3 month heads up on this either way?

You are correct. It makes no difference. This has been an exercise in "bad things will happen" used to reform political views and stoke sabre rattling. China is a bad actor in many arenas, just as the US is a bad actor in many arenas. The idea that any country releases some lab-grown bug will never be politically admitted, so the theory is irrelevant. I tend to think China is a danger to humanity at-large, but I coul…

While the points you make may be true, they do not conclusively show that it makes no difference. See my response to GP.

Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#92

Post by Frost1x »

endisneigh wrote: post #21

Forgive my ignorance but even if it was lab created, so what? I don’t really understand why it matters or not. Didn’t the entire world basically have a nearly 3 month heads up on this either way?

If it was lab created then you know some group intentionally or through their negligence caused millions and millions of people to die. They won't be held accountable unless China itself would decide to do so (assuming in this hypothetical that it was created by China of course).

If it was being developed as a biological weapon you would tend to assume there's likely progress on how to defend against it by those who created it so you could hope to leverage that work to get a head start on vaccines and so forth. No one could force China to hand that work over but they could certainly pressure them in full force, including some of their allies that may also be suffering.

Overall, there's really not much in terms of actionable information to follow through with. It might help states target spies to keep a closer eye on these scenarios and prompt a better global response in the future.

Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#93

Post by CyberRabbi »

kergonath wrote: post #59
renewiltord wrote: post #5

The WHO is a useless organization. For political reasons, it will be necessary to engage, but hopefully US authorities will not treat it as an information source. The US should use its own primary sources in future to evaluate disease spread. China will lie to the WHO and the WHO will protect it. But to know the truth, we should use our modern equivalents of Key Hole. There is no truth but that which you have examine…

There is no winning with you... Of course it cannot be too powerful, because then nationalists would scream bloody murder and refuse to have anything to do with it. The WHO is a forum to coordinate strategy and exchange information. Obviously, this requires a minimum of good faith, which seems to be difficult for some countries (yes, particularly dictatorships). But even then, it is better to have them within, collab…

The WHO has shown itself to be practically useless. The premise that sovereign nations need the WHO to cooperate is false. Diplomacy and cooperation between nations was the norm for many years prior to the WHO and will be the norm for many years after the WHO’s inevitable abandonment and demise.

Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#94

Post by willis936 »

elif wrote: post #69
f430 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the CCP is innocent why not prove it to the world by sharing their data? Why hide things?

In modern discourse we use the acronym CPC rather than CCP. Unless of course you are intentionally invoking red scare era politics. Edit: ah rip karma. who was I kidding. Why would you ever promote neutral discourse when you can take sides.

It isn’t a promotion of neutral discourse. The party didn’t change, why would the name?

Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#95

Post by loveistheanswer »

mgamache wrote: post #26
f430 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the CCP is innocent why not prove it to the world by sharing their data? Why hide things?

Well, lets say they don't know, but there's a chance of a lab leak. Why take the chance when you can use FUD to confuse the world and remove the downside risk (which is very large).

Perhaps they did not account for a potential Streissand Effect

Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#96

Post by kergonath »

Frost1x wrote: post #75
kergonath wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no winning with you... Of course it cannot be too powerful, because then nationalists would scream bloody murder and refuse to have anything to do with it. The WHO is a forum to coordinate strategy and exchange information. Obviously, this requires a minimum of good faith, which seems to be difficult for some countries (yes, particularly dictatorships). But even then, it is better to have them within, collab…

>But even then, it is better to have them within, collaborating on their terms, than to leave them outside, in which case it would be even harder to get any information out of them. I tend to agree with this sentiment, however I'm always on the fence as to if acting on no new information is better than acting on false or misleading information. If you can't trust the source the data is almost worthless. Anyways, that…

> I'm always on the fence as to if acting on no new information is better than acting on false or misleading information.

Yeah, neither is good.

> If you can't trust the source the data is almost worthless.

It’s worse than worthless, because you are expecting disinformation. Though to be fair you can also get disinformation from sources you trust...

> Getting any direct access to gather independent information I'd say is nearly always valuable unless it's also targeted with disinformation campaigns.

That’s why it’s good to have inspectors. But even then, there are limits. Inspectors usually cannot go anywhere they please (otherwise nobody would sign that treaty), so it’s always possible to hide things from them.

Our governments have also the right to be critical when reading reports, particularly based on data from untrustworthy countries. We elect them to do their job, and that job involves quite a bit of critical thinking when dealing with other countries. They also have experts and often scientific cooperation agreements that can complement the WHO.

So yes, the WHO is imperfect. Perfecting it is quite difficult without causing countries to drop out, and countries should not be reliant on only one source anyway.

Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#97

Post by dempseye »

throwaway4good wrote: post #33

Boo. The Americans need to shut up or actual provide evidence for their outrageous claim that the virus escaped from a lab.

I don't know either way, but the claim that the virus escaped from a lab is hardly outrageous. It is well within the sphere of possibilities that are worth examining. Lab leaks have happened before.

Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#98

Post by Udik »

ttz wrote: post #53

First gen Chinese, grew up in NA. Have contact with relatives "on the ground". My own experience: Don't ever trust the Chinese government on issues that could potentially involve the reputation of the party. Note that I'm not saying don't trust what CCP says, ever (sometimes they actually do good things) - just not on issues that involve anything to do with how the world might perceive them. Which is exactly what thi…

> Don't ever trust the Chinese government on issues that could potentially involve the reputation of the party

Seems this holds true for every government and party.

Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#99

Post by elif »

willis936 wrote: post #94
elif wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In modern discourse we use the acronym CPC rather than CCP. Unless of course you are intentionally invoking red scare era politics. Edit: ah rip karma. who was I kidding. Why would you ever promote neutral discourse when you can take sides.

It isn’t a promotion of neutral discourse. The party didn’t change, why would the name?

So calling things by their preferred name is not neutral?

This is like making a statement about the demonrats and expecting to be taken seriously.

It has the intellectual power of intentionally misgendering someone as a means of insulting them.

There is a reason that neoconservatives like Mike Pompeo are revitalizing your preferred acronym.

Re: US raises ‘deep concerns’ over WHO report on Covid’s Wuhan origins

#100

Post by pessimizer »

endisneigh wrote: post #21

Forgive my ignorance but even if it was lab created, so what? I don’t really understand why it matters or not. Didn’t the entire world basically have a nearly 3 month heads up on this either way?

The US and Western Europe find it very important to find any way to increase anti-China sentiment. Whether or not it is actually meaningful in a practical sense, accusing China of creating and spreading the virus adds to the ancient enemy status that it shares with Russia, and justifies large domestic expenditures.

The public justification for the giant US nuclear arsenal was the entirely fictional "missile gap," thereby creating an actual missile gap in the other direction that the Soviets thought they had to close. I'm not saying that "If new coronaviruses are being cooked up in Wuhan, we'd be negligent if we weren't funding development of our own" thought processes will necessarily become ascendant, but "China is a existential threat to the world, and any expenditure is justified in order to defeat it" is absolutely common.

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