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The Kotlin Foundation

kotlinlang.org

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Re: The Kotlin Foundation

#151

Post by guytv »

I have been programming for 37 years now.

Kotlin is just a joy to read and write.

Usually when working on a new non-trivial task, I first think of the solution, then write it down in pseudo code.

Reading a Java implementation of my original pseudo code - I sometimes feel the actual solution hides below layers of code. The solution is still there, but it is hard to see it.

When comparing the resulting Kotlin code with the original solution written in pseudo - Ir can still be seen clearly.

Kotlin does not get in the way, but still allows me to use strong typing and compile time checks to make sure my code is solid and stable without loosing readability.

It is just great joy, fun, using it.

Re: The Kotlin Foundation

#152

Post by The_Colonel »

chrisseaton wrote: post #84
peheje wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But... When Java gets "properly engineered solution" for async code... Kotlin got it as well!

So why bother using Kotlin? Seems like it fixes trivial things (makes simple classes a bit more terse) but retains the more fundamental problems and hangs on for Java to actually fix those.

Kotlin fixes just trivial things - like nullability for example. Java still doesn't have a good solution, only about 5 bad ones and nothing is in sight. It even looks like Java designers simply don't consider it a problem anymore ...

Instead, they focus on things like value types. Which are definitely cool, but they don't actually solve any of my problems. Typical business apps written in Java don't suffer from performance issues, they suffer from (accidental) complexity explosion and subsequent buginess (of which NPEs is a symptom).

Re: The Kotlin Foundation

#153

Post by steveklabnik »

yannoninator wrote: post #142
steveklabnik wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is your specific dislike about Google on the Rust Foundation board?

Steve, I don't understand why Google, Microsoft and AWS et. al are on a board of this new foundation. Who had a say on this decision? And the special guest is Huawei as well just because they use Rust in some way. I'd rather have them sponsor Rust without giving them too much control by placing them on the board.

The foundation was created as a project of the core team. Nobody was a "special guest." All parties agreed to the terms. That's what the founders of an organization does.

Again, specifically: what control are you worried about? I suspect that you think the foundation has powers it does not have.

Re: The Kotlin Foundation

#154

Post by vram22 »

brabel wrote: post #92

This is great for Kotlin! But I need to make an observation about Google... They're also co-founders of the Rust Foundation[1], the major member of the select group of companies at the table at WHATWG[2] (which amongst other things decide on the future of web technologies, including JavaScript) due to their browser's market share, and a "visionary sponsor" of the Python Foundation[3]. They also develop a few programm…

What is your point? Maybe you need to make it more clear. Note:I am neither pro nor con Google, although I have both praised them and critized them in the past, for different things.

Re: The Kotlin Foundation

#155

Post by yannoninator »

steveklabnik wrote: post #153
yannoninator wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Steve, I don't understand why Google, Microsoft and AWS et. al are on a board of this new foundation. Who had a say on this decision? And the special guest is Huawei as well just because they use Rust in some way. I'd rather have them sponsor Rust without giving them too much control by placing them on the board.

The foundation was created as a project of the core team. Nobody was a "special guest." All parties agreed to the terms. That's what the founders of an organization does. Again, specifically: what control are you worried about? I suspect that you think the foundation has powers it does not have.

It is the structure that I am concerned about.

Again, I'd rather have them just sponsor Rust, why wasn't a gold or platinum sponsorship like structure considered without placing them on the board of directors.

How about a corporate membership without voting rights?

Re: The Kotlin Foundation

#156

Post by listenallyall »

brabel wrote: post #107
BoorishBears wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spring is not standing still, and I'm not trying to claim it is, but there's still a fair bit of ceremony around a lot of features That's not necessarily a bad thing, but usually people who are giving the JVM a "second chance" via Kotlin were initially turned off by that ceremony - So when someone asks me "What should framework should I try for Kotlin web services?" my answer is usually Ktor. Because if they had to a…

Java developers are spoiled for choice. There's everything, from the simplest possible https://sparkjava.com/ , to the a little bit nicer https://javalin.io/ (which has a Kotlin wrapper), to the high performance and full framework https://vertx.io/ (which always had great multi-lingual support within the JVM), to the newer and GraalVM-friendly https://micronaut.io/ and https://quarkus.io/ ... for the Enterprise-only…

Or http4k, which implements "server as a function" and is fantastic for an API backend, with lenses/contracts, auto-serialization on top of your choice of Kotlinx/Gson/Moshi/Jackson, nested routing, so much more.

Re: The Kotlin Foundation

#157

Post by no_wizard »

yannoninator wrote: post #118
no_wizard wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google is highly invested Kotlin and it’s success with Android and what I’m certain is the fact that they have huge Java code adds that I could see them having real value in slowly converting to kotlin and allowing Kotlin to be the first class choice where Java would be. Honestly I just don’t see it here. Google’s marketplace ambitions have not surfaced in these foundations. I would Love a real tangible counter examp…

> Google is highly invested Kotlin I don't see what benefit of putting them on the board would give them, same thing with Rust, just because it's used on Android? Was a gold sponsorship not enough? > Honestly I just don’t see it here. You're not looking hard enough, they are bearing 'generous' gifts to these foundations, Example: OpenAI was all about openness weren't they? But a big somebody bared a huge gift and so…

I can understand caution and concern and it’s healthy to have it.

That said, I’m unable to think of or find obvious examples of them having a track record of using foundations like this for their own agenda at the expense of the community, language or only to further their own ends. Even with the browser stuff there’s Chrome the product which makes a lot of changes that does hurt the community but then there’s Googles representation on tc39 and in the web standards groups. With that I haven’t found evidence of malpractice or foul play. Please give me some concrete evidence that they have a history of this as I’m not finding it.

Doesn’t mean that as a whole these companies get a pass for Bad behavior, I think a key to a great argument against something is to be able to scope what it does and doesn’t do, so I hate to say they are doing this for malicious reasons only to be wrong (and again I’m not seeing evidence) and undercutting more legitimate arguments. Fundamentally that’s the arching issue we end up with by just making assumptions without evidence at a minimum

Re: The Kotlin Foundation

#158

Post by MikeTheGreat »

MikeDelta wrote: post #126
alexfromapex wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google needs a real competitor, I feel like people don’t try to create search engines because it’s such a monolithic task and Google is so far ahead

I read an article in the FT recently saying that a new batch of startups is looking at competing with Google in the search-engine field [0]. [0] https://www.ft.com/content/24efc152-a65d-4c48-9032-ee349a2c8...

Sorry for the off-topic post:

Is there a good way to get non-paywalled access to this? It says I can read it if I register but today that's just one step too many for me ("_Another_ account? Really? sigh" :) )

I'm kinda curious to know why anyone is trying to start a new search engine(s), given both Google and Bing.

(But apparently not curious enough to give my email address to Yet Another Website :) )

Re: The Kotlin Foundation

#159

Post by listenallyall »

Retozi wrote: post #121
chin7an wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Checkout jooq(1) for a SQL DSL in Java. I've used it with MySQL and love it. Trying to convince my employer for the paid version with RDS. [1] http://www.jooq.org/

we use jooq extensively it's probably the most valuable tech in our backend. Also among various other tech stacks I've never seen something that hits the sweet spot between "plain sql" and "advantages of ORM-stuff" as well as jooq

Also, props to the primary developer Lucas, who directly replied to my questions within a day, twice

Re: The Kotlin Foundation

#160

Post by steveklabnik »

yannoninator wrote: post #155
steveklabnik wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The foundation was created as a project of the core team. Nobody was a "special guest." All parties agreed to the terms. That's what the founders of an organization does. Again, specifically: what control are you worried about? I suspect that you think the foundation has powers it does not have.

It is the structure that I am concerned about. Again, I'd rather have them just sponsor Rust, why wasn't a gold or platinum sponsorship like structure considered without placing them on the board of directors. How about a corporate membership without voting rights?

Right, but the structure is a secondary concern, in that you're concerned about the structure because it enables particular actions. What kind of vote are you worried about?
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