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The Kotlin Foundation

kotlinlang.org

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Re: The Kotlin Foundation

#111

Post by holoduke »

maxpert wrote: post #89

I’ve used Kotlin on Server Side in production at a pretty significant scale and I think it’s the most underrated thing for people using JVM on servers. I recently had a podcast with one of Spring dev advocates (Josh Long) https://spring.io/blog/2021/02/11/a-bootiful-podcast-doordas... (shameless plug) and brought similar discussion to table. I will seriously urge folks to try it and hopefully foundation will bring mo…

We used it for 1 year. Using spring boot framework. Unfortunately we had to ditch it. Issues with multi annotation support. Problems with instant run / partial compile. Slower performance. This was about a year ago. Maybe things have been improved. But we also noted that many outstanding bugs were ignored by the main devs behind kotlin. Did not feel like a mature language. At least not now.

Re: The Kotlin Foundation

#112

Post by chin7an »

dehrmann wrote: post #104
lokedhs wrote: post #99

I started using Java in the 90's and worked for Sun back in the day, so I have a reasonable amount of experience with it. Kotlin is a much better Java, and these days if I need to use the JVM, I will use Kotlin. However, I do feel that there is a huge missed opportunity in making something that is not just a better Java, but a better language. Kotlin has a lot of annoying limitations, almost all of which are there be…

> Another thing I'd like to see changed is better support for DSL's I keep waiting for a good solution for SQL in Java (or another language) that isn't a builder or a string with templating. I don't like what React does architecturally, but JSX shows how mixing languages in an elegant-ish way can be huge.

Checkout jooq(1) for a SQL DSL in Java. I've used it with MySQL and love it. Trying to convince my employer for the paid version with RDS.

[1] http://www.jooq.org/

Re: The Kotlin Foundation

#113

Post by aweiland »

dbsmith83 wrote: post #29
davnicwil wrote: post #22

A question for HN - I like Java a lot for the ‘http API talking to SQL database’ usecase, with my goto for that being dropwizard or spring boot. I’ve only ever looked at Kotlin code in blogposts, haven’t ever actually used it. I’m probably at least a few years behind on its feature set, but I am aware of all the great features Java has added in that timeframe, many no doubt inspired by Kotlin! Would you advise me to…

My team uses Kotlin + Dropwizard + Postgres a lot. I would absolutely recommend trying Kotlin out on your next API. You will find the code very easy to learn coming from Java, and it is honestly a joy to work with compared to Java. You will find your code much more concise yet more readable. Also, IntelliJ gives you all kinds of hints for how you can make use of Kotlin language features. You can also easily handle nu…

What do you use at the database layer? Hibernate, or something lighter, and more Kotlin native, like Exposed?

Re: The Kotlin Foundation

#114

Post by nindalf »

brabel wrote: post #92

This is great for Kotlin! But I need to make an observation about Google... They're also co-founders of the Rust Foundation[1], the major member of the select group of companies at the table at WHATWG[2] (which amongst other things decide on the future of web technologies, including JavaScript) due to their browser's market share, and a "visionary sponsor" of the Python Foundation[3]. They also develop a few programm…

I think we have to understand that Google is a large company filled with people with technical skills. These people are rewarded for contributing to open source. So they do. That's it. It is entirely possible that maybe Google employees might want a feature that others don't, but I haven't seen that evidence.

In 10 years of developing Go, I know of only 2 things that the community has disagreed on with the Go team - package management and generics. One is already fixed and the other will be in a year. Nothing I can think of wrt their contributions to Rust, Kotlin, C++, Python etc.

No one has ever articulated why it's a bad thing that Google sponsors open source development. If someone could articulate specific reasons, that'd be great. But this kind of FUD comment ("hmm, they sponsor an awful lot don't they") doesn't add much.

Re: The Kotlin Foundation

#115

Post by alexfromapex »

brabel wrote: post #92

This is great for Kotlin! But I need to make an observation about Google... They're also co-founders of the Rust Foundation[1], the major member of the select group of companies at the table at WHATWG[2] (which amongst other things decide on the future of web technologies, including JavaScript) due to their browser's market share, and a "visionary sponsor" of the Python Foundation[3]. They also develop a few programm…

Google needs a real competitor, I feel like people don’t try to create search engines because it’s such a monolithic task and Google is so far ahead

Re: The Kotlin Foundation

#116

Post by mirekrusin »

dehrmann wrote: post #104
lokedhs wrote: post #99

I started using Java in the 90's and worked for Sun back in the day, so I have a reasonable amount of experience with it. Kotlin is a much better Java, and these days if I need to use the JVM, I will use Kotlin. However, I do feel that there is a huge missed opportunity in making something that is not just a better Java, but a better language. Kotlin has a lot of annoying limitations, almost all of which are there be…

> Another thing I'd like to see changed is better support for DSL's I keep waiting for a good solution for SQL in Java (or another language) that isn't a builder or a string with templating. I don't like what React does architecturally, but JSX shows how mixing languages in an elegant-ish way can be huge.

String templating elevated to "tagged templates" [0] which dispatches template on your own function is suprisingly acceptable solution. I'm using it to drive mssql sql generation [1] and it works really well with type system around combinators. It's perfect, extremely lightweight way to achieve embedded dsl like experience.

[0] https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/JavaScript/Refe... [1] https://github.com/appliedblockchain/tsql

Re: The Kotlin Foundation

#117

Post by vbezhenar »

dehrmann wrote: post #104
lokedhs wrote: post #99

I started using Java in the 90's and worked for Sun back in the day, so I have a reasonable amount of experience with it. Kotlin is a much better Java, and these days if I need to use the JVM, I will use Kotlin. However, I do feel that there is a huge missed opportunity in making something that is not just a better Java, but a better language. Kotlin has a lot of annoying limitations, almost all of which are there be…

> Another thing I'd like to see changed is better support for DSL's I keep waiting for a good solution for SQL in Java (or another language) that isn't a builder or a string with templating. I don't like what React does architecturally, but JSX shows how mixing languages in an elegant-ish way can be huge.

PL/SQL?

Re: The Kotlin Foundation

#118

Post by yannoninator »

no_wizard wrote: post #87
yannoninator wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm not sure why the victim complex about Apple in your comment, he said too few companies do it Sure it's all good when companies fund projects they use, but that does not mean they should instantly get a board seat. It makes sense why Jane Street sponsors OCaml, does not mean they instantly get a board seat. I don't see Jane Street sponsoring RISC-V and getting a board seat do I? And it doesn't make sense to do s…

Google is highly invested Kotlin and it’s success with Android and what I’m certain is the fact that they have huge Java code adds that I could see them having real value in slowly converting to kotlin and allowing Kotlin to be the first class choice where Java would be. Honestly I just don’t see it here. Google’s marketplace ambitions have not surfaced in these foundations. I would Love a real tangible counter examp…

> Google is highly invested Kotlin

I don't see what benefit of putting them on the board would give them, same thing with Rust, just because it's used on Android? Was a gold sponsorship not enough?

> Honestly I just don’t see it here.

You're not looking hard enough, they are bearing 'generous' gifts to these foundations, Example: OpenAI was all about openness weren't they?

But a big somebody bared a huge gift and so much for 'Open AI'.

Don't you think Google and others like them are doing the same thing such that they are getting you to use their products through their 'donations'?

> That doesn’t handwave legitimate complaints here and I don’t like Google have arbitrary outsized influence either but I don’t think that’s the case with these commuters/foundations

Again we shall see, but I am seeing this everywhere and I am not happy with the shift from community to corporation led open source projects. A sponsorship should be enough but they want more as always.

Re: The Kotlin Foundation

#119

Post by jorblumesea »

lokedhs wrote: post #99

I started using Java in the 90's and worked for Sun back in the day, so I have a reasonable amount of experience with it. Kotlin is a much better Java, and these days if I need to use the JVM, I will use Kotlin. However, I do feel that there is a huge missed opportunity in making something that is not just a better Java, but a better language. Kotlin has a lot of annoying limitations, almost all of which are there be…

I actually think that once you have Kotlin on top, it might open the door to another VM or bytecode generator. What's the point of having that abstraction if you're so tied to some other company VM?

Re: The Kotlin Foundation

#120

Post by aweiland »

tibiahurried wrote: post #39

Tried Kotlin, honestly I was not impressed. Tools (maven/gradle) wasn't as straight forward to setup as one would have expected. I am not impressed with the language itself and I had issue with conflicting libraries and kotlin versions. I switched back to modern Java and did not regret it. Java is catching up at a fast pace, I don't think Kotlin will ever replace Java or see mass adoption.

It's 3 lines in a build.gradle(.kts) to get running. We've been using it in production for 5 years without any issues you are describing.
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