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The Kotlin Foundation

kotlinlang.org

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Re: The Kotlin Foundation

#141

Post by impulser_ »

yannoninator wrote: post #2

Rust, Python and now Kotlin. Just as PSF promoted Google to visionary sponsor, although I understand Jetbrains, but we see yet again our saviour Google on the board of yet another language, even after Rust formed its foundation. I guess I have no choice to accept this future we've put ourselves in.

Well Google does run and control the largest Java platform in the world by far. I think it would be a good thing to have them on your side when you are developing a language that interoperate with Java.

Re: The Kotlin Foundation

#142

Post by yannoninator »

steveklabnik wrote: post #83
yannoninator wrote: post #2

Rust, Python and now Kotlin. Just as PSF promoted Google to visionary sponsor, although I understand Jetbrains, but we see yet again our saviour Google on the board of yet another language, even after Rust formed its foundation. I guess I have no choice to accept this future we've put ourselves in.

What is your specific dislike about Google on the Rust Foundation board?

Steve, I don't understand why Google, Microsoft and AWS et. al are on a board of this new foundation. Who had a say on this decision?

And the special guest is Huawei as well just because they use Rust in some way.

I'd rather have them sponsor Rust without giving them too much control by placing them on the board.

Re: The Kotlin Foundation

#143

Post by ivanche »

mkurz wrote: post #129
brabel wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Java developers are spoiled for choice. There's everything, from the simplest possible https://sparkjava.com/ , to the a little bit nicer https://javalin.io/ (which has a Kotlin wrapper), to the high performance and full framework https://vertx.io/ (which always had great multi-lingual support within the JVM), to the newer and GraalVM-friendly https://micronaut.io/ and https://quarkus.io/ ... for the Enterprise-only…

You forgot https://www.playframework.com/

Just to add https://www.ninjaframework.org/

Re: The Kotlin Foundation

#144

Post by cnl »

nindalf wrote: post #135
mrmonkeyman wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This lacks nuance. You ignore the effect they have on the ecosystem as a whole. Mentioning the "Go community" and their "agreement" of Google's decisions without acknowledging this is disingenuous at best. They have already swayed and gatekept large swaths of the (web)development "community" by their decade-long dominance and no one can make an impactful, meaningful decision in that field without their implicit appro…

Your comment lacks any content. You make vague claims of "effect on the ecosystem" without mentioning what that is. Give an example. Can people not create web frameworks? Can people not create products hosted on the web? Can people not use AWS or Azure for all their computing needs? You can't just claim "everything they touch sucks" without a single example or evidence to back it up. You look like a hater.

The pro-Googlers are out in force today, also in the "visionary" Python topic.

FYI, often it is not possible to mention specifics because "open" source projects tightly control member opinions these days.

Re: The Kotlin Foundation

#145

Post by dbsmith83 »

chrisseaton wrote: post #84
peheje wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But... When Java gets "properly engineered solution" for async code... Kotlin got it as well!

So why bother using Kotlin? Seems like it fixes trivial things (makes simple classes a bit more terse) but retains the more fundamental problems and hangs on for Java to actually fix those.

It's way more than terse classes. The syntax everywhere is cleaner. Higher order functions look so much nicer. Using val/var is superior to having to remember to write 'final' all the time. Kotlin also handles nullability way better. Ah, also, default arguments for constructors/methods. These features prevent a lot of developer mistakes, and thus better code is often achieved.

Also, Kotlin usually forges ahead on features, and the Java is playing catch up. Take data classes for instance. If anything it seems like Kotlin gave Java a good kick in the pants to get it to start developing faster and adding modern language features.

Re: The Kotlin Foundation

#146

Post by dbsmith83 »

chrisseaton wrote: post #61
sorokod wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work in a fintech company, most of our backend is in Kotlin with "legacy" functionality in Java. Can't think of a single developer that would choose Java over Kotlin.

I'd choose Java over Kotlin. The benefits of Kotlin seem minor - mostly syntactic sugar - and the tooling is more limited than Java. They seem to solve problems with kludges (like their coroutines are really just state machines in JVM bytecode, which creates issues like irreducible control-flow) rather than properly engineering solutions like Java try to do.

How is the tooling more limited? I have never had a problem using any java library/framework with Kotlin.

Re: The Kotlin Foundation

#147

Post by ofrzeta »

brabel wrote: post #107
BoorishBears wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spring is not standing still, and I'm not trying to claim it is, but there's still a fair bit of ceremony around a lot of features That's not necessarily a bad thing, but usually people who are giving the JVM a "second chance" via Kotlin were initially turned off by that ceremony - So when someone asks me "What should framework should I try for Kotlin web services?" my answer is usually Ktor. Because if they had to a…

Java developers are spoiled for choice. There's everything, from the simplest possible https://sparkjava.com/ , to the a little bit nicer https://javalin.io/ (which has a Kotlin wrapper), to the high performance and full framework https://vertx.io/ (which always had great multi-lingual support within the JVM), to the newer and GraalVM-friendly https://micronaut.io/ and https://quarkus.io/ ... for the Enterprise-only…

vert.x has unfortunately reduced the support of JVM languages to Java, Kotlin and Groovy. No longer any Scala support, also no support of Javascript.

Re: The Kotlin Foundation

#148

Post by maxpert »

holoduke wrote: post #111
maxpert wrote: post #89

I’ve used Kotlin on Server Side in production at a pretty significant scale and I think it’s the most underrated thing for people using JVM on servers. I recently had a podcast with one of Spring dev advocates (Josh Long) https://spring.io/blog/2021/02/11/a-bootiful-podcast-doordas... (shameless plug) and brought similar discussion to table. I will seriously urge folks to try it and hopefully foundation will bring mo…

We used it for 1 year. Using spring boot framework. Unfortunately we had to ditch it. Issues with multi annotation support. Problems with instant run / partial compile. Slower performance. This was about a year ago. Maybe things have been improved. But we also noted that many outstanding bugs were ignored by the main devs behind kotlin. Did not feel like a mature language. At least not now.

What version of springboot you were on?

Re: The Kotlin Foundation

#149

Post by nindalf »

cnl wrote: post #144
nindalf wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment lacks any content. You make vague claims of "effect on the ecosystem" without mentioning what that is. Give an example. Can people not create web frameworks? Can people not create products hosted on the web? Can people not use AWS or Azure for all their computing needs? You can't just claim "everything they touch sucks" without a single example or evidence to back it up. You look like a hater.

The pro-Googlers are out in force today, also in the "visionary" Python topic. FYI, often it is not possible to mention specifics because "open" source projects tightly control member opinions these days.

Thanks for the ad hominem attack. FYI, I have no google stock, never worked for google, have never contributed to a google open source project. If they’re supposed to be paying me for pointing out common sense on this thread ... they’re late on their payment.

Re: The Kotlin Foundation

#150

Post by Pxtl »

pjmlp wrote: post #93
Pxtl wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a big part of the appeal of Kotlin was that Scala was impractical for use on Android so Kotlin slid in as "the missing pieces" of Java.

Because Google as Kotlin's Godfather is stagnating Android Java on purpose, on the proper JVM we don't have such constraints.

Can't really blame Google for deciding to move away from Java after the Oracle lawsuit.
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