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The Kotlin Foundation

kotlinlang.org

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Re: The Kotlin Foundation

#131

Post by dbsmith83 »

aweiland wrote: post #113
dbsmith83 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My team uses Kotlin + Dropwizard + Postgres a lot. I would absolutely recommend trying Kotlin out on your next API. You will find the code very easy to learn coming from Java, and it is honestly a joy to work with compared to Java. You will find your code much more concise yet more readable. Also, IntelliJ gives you all kinds of hints for how you can make use of Kotlin language features. You can also easily handle nu…

What do you use at the database layer? Hibernate, or something lighter, and more Kotlin native, like Exposed?

We use MyBatis annotations. Usually, for our specific use case we are calling a Postgres sproc. It was a little tricky for one part since we have a json type column, so we had to create our own little pgobject mapper which took a day to figure out how. Other than that, it has been a breeze.

Re: The Kotlin Foundation

#132

Post by brabel »

holoduke wrote: post #111
maxpert wrote: post #89

I’ve used Kotlin on Server Side in production at a pretty significant scale and I think it’s the most underrated thing for people using JVM on servers. I recently had a podcast with one of Spring dev advocates (Josh Long) https://spring.io/blog/2021/02/11/a-bootiful-podcast-doordas... (shameless plug) and brought similar discussion to table. I will seriously urge folks to try it and hopefully foundation will bring mo…

We used it for 1 year. Using spring boot framework. Unfortunately we had to ditch it. Issues with multi annotation support. Problems with instant run / partial compile. Slower performance. This was about a year ago. Maybe things have been improved. But we also noted that many outstanding bugs were ignored by the main devs behind kotlin. Did not feel like a mature language. At least not now.

We've been using it since 1.0 and I agree with you that there's many rough edges... many projects may never run into them, but like you, we did have these issues you mention... slower performance by the compiler and IDE are very, very noticeable on a large Kotlin project (at runtime, we haven't had many issues - there's only a few cases Kotlin is slower than Java, but you can keep those in mind and avoid them when necessary[1])... one more issue is Dokka (the equivalent to Javadocs for Kotlin). It's still in alpha and it's pretty terrible, if I may say... it generates documentation that requires lots of JS libraries to run, which is just ridiculous. We ended up writing the documentation conversion ourselves instead of using Dokka (this was actually for an Android project - because we hadn't needed to publish docs for backend Kotlin before).

That said: we still enjoy using Kotlin, I just wouldn't ditch Java for it if I had to pick one.

[1] https://sites.google.com/a/athaydes.com/renato-athaydes/post...

Re: The Kotlin Foundation

#133

Post by nindalf »

yannoninator wrote: post #130
nindalf wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we have to understand that Google is a large company filled with people with technical skills. These people are rewarded for contributing to open source. So they do. That's it. It is entirely possible that maybe Google employees might want a feature that others don't, but I haven't seen that evidence. In 10 years of developing Go, I know of only 2 things that the community has disagreed on with the Go team -…

This does not warrant them giving them a board seat just because they have cash. Go is moot point because they control that language anyway, people have no say on it except people who work at Google. No surprise that you cannot donate any money there.

Foundation needs money (to hire employees) and resources (server time and bandwidth) to run. Sponsors of the foundation will fund this. It's as simple as that.

Point out where this arrangement hasn't worked well. Otherwise you're just spreading FUD.

Re: The Kotlin Foundation

#134

Post by ta988 »

yannoninator wrote: post #118
no_wizard wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google is highly invested Kotlin and it’s success with Android and what I’m certain is the fact that they have huge Java code adds that I could see them having real value in slowly converting to kotlin and allowing Kotlin to be the first class choice where Java would be. Honestly I just don’t see it here. Google’s marketplace ambitions have not surfaced in these foundations. I would Love a real tangible counter examp…

> Google is highly invested Kotlin I don't see what benefit of putting them on the board would give them, same thing with Rust, just because it's used on Android? Was a gold sponsorship not enough? > Honestly I just don’t see it here. You're not looking hard enough, they are bearing 'generous' gifts to these foundations, Example: OpenAI was all about openness weren't they? But a big somebody bared a huge gift and so…

Kotlin is not a community led project. It has always been a Jetbrains led project, and that move to a foundation is a way to try to distribute responsibilities a bit more. At least thats how they sell it.

Re: The Kotlin Foundation

#135

Post by nindalf »

mrmonkeyman wrote: post #124
nindalf wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we have to understand that Google is a large company filled with people with technical skills. These people are rewarded for contributing to open source. So they do. That's it. It is entirely possible that maybe Google employees might want a feature that others don't, but I haven't seen that evidence. In 10 years of developing Go, I know of only 2 things that the community has disagreed on with the Go team -…

This lacks nuance. You ignore the effect they have on the ecosystem as a whole. Mentioning the "Go community" and their "agreement" of Google's decisions without acknowledging this is disingenuous at best. They have already swayed and gatekept large swaths of the (web)development "community" by their decade-long dominance and no one can make an impactful, meaningful decision in that field without their implicit appro…

Your comment lacks any content. You make vague claims of "effect on the ecosystem" without mentioning what that is. Give an example. Can people not create web frameworks? Can people not create products hosted on the web? Can people not use AWS or Azure for all their computing needs?

You can't just claim "everything they touch sucks" without a single example or evidence to back it up. You look like a hater.

Re: The Kotlin Foundation

#136

Post by preommr »

voidfunc wrote: post #45
hnrodey wrote: post #24

Any thoughts on if we are seeing the beginnings of a JetBrains acquisition from Google? There seem to be significant overlap between the JetBrains investments (people capital, intellectual property: IDE, language) and Google significantly using all of these things. edit: lol @ the down votes

I hope not. I will cry when Google inevitably fucks the product up then closes them down.

Does anyone at Google actually care that the company's reputation has become pretty bad?

I know this comment is just a joke, but I think it's an indication of a bigger problem.

Re: The Kotlin Foundation

#137

Post by yannoninator »

nindalf wrote: post #133
yannoninator wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This does not warrant them giving them a board seat just because they have cash. Go is moot point because they control that language anyway, people have no say on it except people who work at Google. No surprise that you cannot donate any money there.

Foundation needs money (to hire employees) and resources (server time and bandwidth) to run. Sponsors of the foundation will fund this. It's as simple as that. Point out where this arrangement hasn't worked well. Otherwise you're just spreading FUD.

Never said I was against sponsorship, just don't put them on the board of directors, a gold/plat sponsorship without votes will do.

Examples of foundations and centers that do this are R, OCaml, Zig and Ruby. All successful.

> Point out where this arrangement hasn't worked well. Otherwise you're just spreading FUD.

W3C and DRM, do you know who voted for this and who is on the board of directors of the W3C?

If you need some time I'll wait.

Re: The Kotlin Foundation

#138

Post by brabel »

_old_dude_ wrote: post #108
lokedhs wrote: post #99

I started using Java in the 90's and worked for Sun back in the day, so I have a reasonable amount of experience with it. Kotlin is a much better Java, and these days if I need to use the JVM, I will use Kotlin. However, I do feel that there is a huge missed opportunity in making something that is not just a better Java, but a better language. Kotlin has a lot of annoying limitations, almost all of which are there be…

> JVM can't do dynamic dispatch on multiple arguments It can since Java 7, the instruction invokedynamic was added for this kind of stuff. The implementation for Pattern Matching (the project Amber) [1] will use the very same instruction. [1] https://cr.openjdk.java.net/~briangoetz/amber/pattern-match-...

Groovy has done dynamic dispatch this way for a decade now.

Re: The Kotlin Foundation

#139

Post by brabel »

dehrmann wrote: post #104
lokedhs wrote: post #99

I started using Java in the 90's and worked for Sun back in the day, so I have a reasonable amount of experience with it. Kotlin is a much better Java, and these days if I need to use the JVM, I will use Kotlin. However, I do feel that there is a huge missed opportunity in making something that is not just a better Java, but a better language. Kotlin has a lot of annoying limitations, almost all of which are there be…

> Another thing I'd like to see changed is better support for DSL's I keep waiting for a good solution for SQL in Java (or another language) that isn't a builder or a string with templating. I don't like what React does architecturally, but JSX shows how mixing languages in an elegant-ish way can be huge.

You and the PC probably would be happy with Groovy, specially with them adding a SQL DSL now: https://github.com/apache/groovy/blob/master/subprojects/gro...

Groovy DSLs are much better than Kotlin's.

Re: The Kotlin Foundation

#140

Post by dragonwriter »

brabel wrote: post #92

This is great for Kotlin! But I need to make an observation about Google... They're also co-founders of the Rust Foundation[1], the major member of the select group of companies at the table at WHATWG[2] (which amongst other things decide on the future of web technologies, including JavaScript) due to their browser's market share, and a "visionary sponsor" of the Python Foundation[3]. They also develop a few programm…

> A company as large as Google is kind of expected to be using every technology in existence

Moreover, as a public cloud provider, they are ultimately expected to be supporting virtually every technology in existence. Amazon (explicitly as AWS, usually) and Microsoft have pretty similar degree of foundation involvement

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