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GitHub: Block the Bullies

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Re: GitHub: Block the Bullies

#141
post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would argue that in almost all cases, a confirmation is far inferior to undo from a usability standpoint. I must admit to having been persuaded by Aza Raskin, in his widely-read article "Never Use a Warning When You Mean Undo". [0] http://www.alistapart.com/articles/neveruseawarning

It depends on the context. In the last two years I've worked on apps where undo would mean incurring liability or potentially losing money immediately following a change. In the first example where liability would be incurred allowing the user to undo a change would actually mean that two changes were made and both have to be tracked, with full audit trail etc. By prompting users for confirmation you have an opportun…

So in this case, you're not talking about making the software easier to use, you're talking about about making a cleaner legal audit trail. Which I'll still argue makes the application in question harder to use and is a worse software choice.

But a worse interface that makes the software easier to code is one thing; a worse interface that makes the software more easily comply with the law is an entirely different trade-off.

Re: GitHub: Block the Bullies

#142
post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends on the context. In the last two years I've worked on apps where undo would mean incurring liability or potentially losing money immediately following a change. In the first example where liability would be incurred allowing the user to undo a change would actually mean that two changes were made and both have to be tracked, with full audit trail etc. By prompting users for confirmation you have an opportun…

So in this case, you're not talking about making the software easier to use, you're talking about about making a cleaner legal audit trail. Which I'll still argue makes the application in question harder to use and is a worse software choice. But a worse interface that makes the software easier to code is one thing; a worse interface that makes the software more easily comply with the law is an entirely different tra…

> you're talking about about making a cleaner legal audit trail.

Not exactly, the legal audit trail can be messy and it doesn't matter one bit so long as it's accurate. In the case described change one is logged and the undo constitues a second change which is also logged. Change one incurs liability for the user and change two simply increases the liability for the user (sorry I can't go into specifics) even though it's correcting a problem. In my experience it's very difficult to create a user interface where the "undo" action clearly indicates the consequence of the change in these scenarios. Preventing unnecessary changes via a combination of up front documentation and confirmation provided the better user experience, and legal liability reduction, in my experience and based on some user feedback.

> But a worse interface that makes the software easier to code is one thing; a worse interface that makes the software more easily comply with the law is an entirely different trade-off.

Believe me, not confirming user actions would have been less code and easier to build and maintain in this case. Legal compliance on my part would have been maintained in either case. Allowing my users to quickly and easily build up liability would be doing them a disservice however. Adding some friction to those transactions was agreed to be the better option by everyone involved.

I think the idea that confirmation vs undo is subjective. We can go on and on for hours and come up with examples and counter examples. The particular context of the action likely determines which provides the better user experience in total (not just on that one screen or interaction but via the consequences of the action as well). I would certainly prefer that if I'm using a system like facebook that it confirm I really want to make my home address and phone number public before it does so rather than letting me check a box and it's done. The same goes with a money transfer where an undo may not even be possible after some amount of time. Not prompting for confirmation certainly makes the transactions move faster (less friction) and undo is easy enough in many cases, but does that frictionless transaction have the best outcome for my users? Not always. The blanket statement that "undo > confirmation. Always." is just plain wrong, not that you made it of course.

Re: GitHub: Block the Bullies

#143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The value proposition of the Ruby community has more to do with their mindshare than their technical merit. Compare and contrast Scientology with Psychiatry. Both communities make similar value propositions: improve mental health. Scientology is optimized to gain and keep converts and to spread like a viral meme. Psychiatry is optimized to achieve good treatment outcomes. Scientology makes more money despite being a…

Scientology makes more money [than the field of psychiatry]. This seems really questionable to me. If we assume 13 psychiatrists per 100K people in 2005 ( http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=523453 ), and just count Europe and the US, that's ~80K psychiatrists, and if they average 120K USD per year, that's nearly 10 billion USD. Scientology had a worldwide income of less than 400 million in 1993 ( http://…

Yeah you're right. I think at one point Scientology may have been richer, but they have gone downhill it seems.

Re: GitHub: Block the Bullies

#144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't have "do nothing" mean both "do not accept (yet?)" and also "accept!"; if no action keeps you from accepting, it means it'll take an extra step to actually accept an invitation. If the common case is not trolling, that adds friction.

I'm not sure what you're arguing here. Obviously "do nothing" can't mean both. Obviously the entire point of a confirmation would be such that it would take an action to be "accept", so that means that "do nothing" would have to be "do not accept (yet?)". Obviously this is only useful for GH if trolling is the common case. And obviously I started my post by saying I did not want confirmations. So what exactly are you…

Upon rereading I'm not sure what I meant either. My guess is that I was responding to

> The optimal way to use confirmations is often not hitting "Reject" to requests you don't want. Just do nothing.

and didn't read carefully. I was probably pointing out that if trolling is not the common case then that system is not in fact optimal (which I think we agree on), without realizing you didn't claim it was the optimal system but only the optimal system-which-uses-confirmations. Sorry about that.

Re: GitHub: Block the Bullies

#145
post #29

This is a very good feature, but I am also afraid it will make Zed Shaw and others think that his attempt to out-troll the trolls and multiply internet drama was a force for positive change. "If you throw a big enough temper tantrum and incite a large enough shitstorm, developers will address your concerns" is an unfortunate precedent. The fact that controversy and negativity attracts eyeballs and can trigger improve…

'"If you throw a big enough temper tantrum and incite a large enough shitstorm, developers will address your concerns" is an unfortunate precedent.' Perhaps so, but Zed Shaw is not the one that set it. The age of the phrase "the squeaky wheel gets the grease" is measured in decades, not days.

centuries, perhaps? http://www.answers.com/topic/squeaky-wheel-gets-the-grease

Re: GitHub: Block the Bullies

#146
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess I figured it was implied. With your influence, you totally could've emailed the github guys and voice your concerns privately. Instead, you chose to do your own thing and publicize it and how awesomely you pwned the dude. And then you claimed it was all to improve the github experience. Cmon.

So, you basically were stirring up drama by exaggerating what I said for effect, yet I'm the drama queen and attention whore. Next time, actually read what I write instead of just imagining you read it after seeing a stream of tweets and your buddies on reddit tell it to you 4th person in some comments. For example, I didn't contact github because I knew one of the peole working there was in on the joke. If you read…

"For example, I didn't contact github because I knew one of the peole working there was in on the joke."

hmm, couldn't it be that some other customer service people would actually do their job about your issue? How do you know it would all be channeled through this one guy that was in on the joke? In any case if they did ignore your request, you could still do the whole crashing thing...

Re: GitHub: Block the Bullies

#147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I won't admit that. His writing just makes me sad.

Grow a sense of humor.

You know, I grew in the society which had a lot of problems and a consequence grew a very good sense of humor (and that without laugh tracks). If someone thinks that Zed's writing is funny they still have a lot to discover.

Re: GitHub: Block the Bullies

#148
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I won't admit that. His writing just makes me sad.

I'm sorry for you. Many of his rants made me laugh to tears. And more generally, did "Learning Python the hard way" make you sad, really ?

No need to be sad. I enjoy humor a lot, only not the Zed's kind. I did not ready LPTHW, but might some day :)

Re: GitHub: Block the Bullies

#149
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'"If you throw a big enough temper tantrum and incite a large enough shitstorm, developers will address your concerns" is an unfortunate precedent.' Perhaps so, but Zed Shaw is not the one that set it. The age of the phrase "the squeaky wheel gets the grease" is measured in decades, not days.

centuries, perhaps? http://www.answers.com/topic/squeaky-wheel-gets-the-grease

I actually wanted to say that, but couldn't establish it quickly. Plus days -> decades is a bit more euphonious, so I didn't fight it too hard.

Re: GitHub: Block the Bullies

#150
post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a pretty lucid and well written account. I would like to know more about the connection between HackerNewsTips and Github though. Github employees have denied it here on HN.

As a paying customer of github, I'd like to know, too. If there is a link, I am deeply disappointed and believe this is exceedingly unprofessional.

We've responded multiple times that we have nothing to do with that account. In this thread just a couple of pages up, in fact: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2606408

We haven't shouted this from the rooftops primarily because we're tired of this being the story when it should have focused on the bullying and our addressing of the problem.

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