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MasterCard to open up network to cryptocurrencies

reuters.com

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Re: MasterCard to open up network to cryptocurrencies

#731

Post by conanbatt »

halukakin wrote: post #373
tenaciousDaniel wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's sad that this aspect of the conversation so often gets replaced by everything else. This is (IMO) the most important point about digital currency - the promise of providing consumers in unstable economies the chance to convert to a more stable currency without government intrusion. We're still not there, but that should be the north star for crypto (again, in my opinion).

Say everyone in an unstable economy were paid in usd. If that country has foreign deficit, if that country has high government debt. What happens? How can the government keep paying its own employees? How does it pay retiree checks? How does it subsidize farming when needed? As long as a country cannot print usd itself, this is a fast shortcut to unemployment, hunger, etc... Strong currencies are not the solution to…

The gov can still pay its employees with its own currency. There are plenty of bimonetary economies.

Re: MasterCard to open up network to cryptocurrencies

#732

Post by MrMan »

ardy42 wrote: post #411
halukakin wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Say everyone in an unstable economy were paid in usd. If that country has foreign deficit, if that country has high government debt. What happens? How can the government keep paying its own employees? How does it pay retiree checks? How does it subsidize farming when needed? As long as a country cannot print usd itself, this is a fast shortcut to unemployment, hunger, etc... Strong currencies are not the solution to…

> Strong currencies are not the solution to poor governance. Good governance and democracy makes a country and its currency strong. Not vice versa. That's a good point. Too many people propose individualist solutions to social problems, and all their "solution" would do is make the social problem worse. I think that stems often stems from an overzealous faith in free markets, which leads to a distorted idea that indi…

This is why I called Bitcoin “naive and antisocial”. I perceive a long-standing willingness on the part of crypto proponents to willfully ignore why monetary policy exists and how it is tied to society’s needs. Self-governance cannot be cast aside in favor of a currency managed by a network of miners remote from the Economic output, debt and other expressions of local social economy. I called it evil and I wasn’t being hyperbolic.

Re: MasterCard to open up network to cryptocurrencies

#733

Post by recursive »

ball_of_lint wrote: post #624
nexthash wrote: post #586

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Call me back when crypto is being used for anything normal - buying groceries, homes, pay checks, etc rather than trading and speculation. As of now, if my job attempts to pay me in DogeCoin I will quit and file a complaint with the NLRB. The thing is, no matter how much you think the current financial system is crooked, there is always a way to settle disputes through courts and regulators. The worst financial hiccu…

Dogecoin is designed to have massive amounts of inflation and would never be seriously considered. Bitcoin is being used for normal things. Want to buy a Tesla?

Yes. How? Where?

Re: MasterCard to open up network to cryptocurrencies

#734

Post by lmm »

Geee wrote: post #627
dkersten wrote: post #494

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the cappuccino will continue to cost them $4 tomorrow, next week and next month. Sure, its value changes and a cappuccino may even cost a different amount sometime in the future, but its easy to know the value of the money you have because the exchange rate between dollars and items in the shop doesn't change so much. Contrast that with bitcoin, where the value often changes by many, many cappuccino's in a si…

You can choose to become poor slowly or to get rich slowly. The short-term volatility doesn't matter in the long run.

In the long run we're all dead. Short-term volatility matters a lot given gambler's ruin etc.

Re: MasterCard to open up network to cryptocurrencies

#735

Post by lazide »

buran77 wrote: post #587
lazide wrote: post #429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think you’re wrong. You might be missing a bigger game though. BTC is fundamentally deflationary in nature - let’s ignore the price volatility and the like for now, I’ll cover that later. It has also so far proven incredibly resistant to attack, both inside and outside the community and despite easy billion dollar payouts if an attack would be successful. There are also efforts making good progress (lightning…

> There are also efforts making good progress I agree but in the grand scheme of currencies and payment infrastructures they barely got out the door. I believe today and for the foreseeable future BTC will be adequate almost exclusively for speculative traders and people who need legal deniability. Most people throw around narrow interpretations for why BTC would be good and they're all good explanations if you look…

First part of your argument - Isn’t this literally the argument against every new anything?

Second part - I think you’re also misunderstanding? Central banks hold gold and other countries currencies for international clearing, export/import, and national security reasons. A central bank is not holding them for price stability and inflation control. Only a small handful of central banks (the fed) meaningfully target those goals, and if they do it is for their own fiat currency.

If you think a central bank is going to hesitate to hold a useful asset for international exchange purposes if a ‘ceo or worse your enemy’ could send it spinning, you’re not paying attention? China’s central bank holds at least $1 trillion US dollars for instance [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign-exchange_reserves_of...], along with Euros and every other currency useful for it’s goals. There is a huge variety of foreign reserves currencies in wide use [https://data.imf.org/?sk=E6A5F467-C14B-4AA8-9F6D-5A09EC4E62A...] covering everything from Chinese renmenbi to Swiss Francs and UKP. All of these change dramatically relative to each other on short notice, all are enemies or economic competitors with some selection of people using them as reserve currencies, and there is no central authority to go crying to if one of them defaults on their debts or inflates their currencies.

And third part - I’m not saying it’s likely any government would replace it’s fiat currency with BTC or any other currency out of it’s control. I’m saying Zimbabwe and many other places don’t really run on their local currency, they run on what people use (currently dollars in most cases, but some places BTC is getting traction) - because their gov’ts destroy the utility of the their local currencies and people can’t trust it.

Re: MasterCard to open up network to cryptocurrencies

#736

Post by quickthrower2 »

vbezhenar wrote: post #255
systemvoltage wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the point of an unstable, volatile, frantically manipulated currency that is susceptible to social media pump and dump schemes (Elon + Doge)? Currency and its exchange rate needs to be relatively stable for the world to put trust into it. Saying that BTC is stable, but the rest of the world's fiat currency is fluctuating makes no sense. US dollar provides stability and security, I feel confident that a cappucc…

Your view must be skewed by privilege of having stable currency. Currency of my country lost 250% of its value over last 7 years. It's not bitcoin-level volatile, but close to it. Thankfully I have an option to use USD to hoard money, but that option is not something that's given, in many countries you just can't exchange for fair price. I agree that for someone living in US or EU there's no much point using BTC.

Do you think stablecoins are a good choice? Use USD but without government inteference.

Re: MasterCard to open up network to cryptocurrencies

#737

Post by MrMan »

omegaworks wrote: post #622
arcticbull wrote: post #606

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This happens in many countries already, the inflation tax of the US banking system is 2% and not an issue. That does not make Panama or Hong Kong US colonies.

It makes them economically dependent. Explicit rather than implicit client states of the US. Colonies in all but name. When President Arnulfo Arias tried exercising his nation's right to issue sovereign currency, he was deposed in a US-backed coup on October 2, 1941.

Switching from one currency you can’t control to another doesn’t sound good

Re: MasterCard to open up network to cryptocurrencies

#738

Post by efwfwef »

nexthash wrote: post #726
efwfwef wrote: post #712

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, Gold value comes from the fact that we all agreed that it should have a value, and it's scarce. Same for Bitcoin. And yes you can parade the fact that you own a bitcoin address, this is after all probably the only reason most people know about Craig S. Wright > There is no convenience, no government backing, and no trust convenience is in stablecoins, government backing is in CBDC, trust is anchored at the founda…

A little bit of value. But as a decentralized utopian panacea? Nope. If I was given the choice between a Bitcoin and a bar of gold, I'd definitely take the bar of gold.

Do you know what is actually worth more NOW? Because what matters is really what is worth more NOW.

Re: MasterCard to open up network to cryptocurrencies

#739

Post by irae »

ska wrote: post #354
krisdol wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Full disclosure: I own about $11 worth of bitcoin if I round up a bit, so this might be biased. The most convincing "point" of bitcoin I've heard is to accomodate transfer of large sums of money across borders, quickly, with minimal transaction costs and oversight. Everyone here can afford the fee to transact 8 billion dollars worth of bitcoin. And settlement happens in seconds to a couple minutes. That's appealing t…

I've never understood this argument. Moving large amounts of one currency between countries isn't expensive or slow (relative to how quickly you typically need to do this). Assuming you are allowed to do it at all. Oversight is a different story, but there aren't many legitimate reasons to want to do that (probably none that aren't problematic). There are, of course, a ton of illegitimate reasons but that's a differe…

It is not that simple once you cross borders to countries USD is used by all kinds of criminals. When you have honest business, you are screwed by the system.

Here in Brazil, getting money in and out is a nightmare if above 5k USD.

I live in Brazil and work for a US company. My first month payment took 3 months to clear, and because of 3 accumulated payments I got audited and the 4th pay got delayed again. The first one that cleared in 3 days was the 6th payment. All payments were charged 40 USD to my employer, but 20 was charged by middle man every month.

I also have a US based health insurance but (again) I currently live in Brazil. I had a surgery reimbursement be withheld for 65 days, I had to send dozens of documents and when they finally cleared, I had not only lost to exchange rates, on middle man bank took 20 USD and my branch in Brazil took an extra 170 USD.

Re: MasterCard to open up network to cryptocurrencies

#740

Post by MrMan »

grey-area wrote: post #417
tenaciousDaniel wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's sad that this aspect of the conversation so often gets replaced by everything else. This is (IMO) the most important point about digital currency - the promise of providing consumers in unstable economies the chance to convert to a more stable currency without government intrusion. We're still not there, but that should be the north star for crypto (again, in my opinion).

But none of that requires cryptocurrencies in their current form. You’re talking about a supranational currency, and I have sincere doubts that grifters of all sorts would not try to take over and manipulate such a currency, as they have for bitcoin. The governance is more important than the tech IMO.

The globe has a few supranational currencies already we have some experience in this
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