Live data from Hacker News

MasterCard to open up network to cryptocurrencies

reuters.com

311–320 of 910 posts

Re: MasterCard to open up network to cryptocurrencies

#311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it’s in your best interest to buy and never sell, why would anyone want to use it for exchange? Bitcoin’s deflationary nature discourages spending and selling, by definition. The high transaction costs discourage it even further.

> If it’s in your best interest to buy and never sell, why would anyone want to use it for exchange? Define best interest here. I mean saving money and investing it to make more money is also in everyone's best interest, but that is certainly not the case. So why is that?

There's a difference between investing in companies, states, and individuals (stocks, bonds, loans), saving in a bank (depending on the structure is usually tied to some kind of investment like those, but not controlled by the saver), and hoarding something under the mattress.

Holding BTC is the same as the last one. The holdings are not invested in anything remotely productive, it's just speculation on the future value.

Re: MasterCard to open up network to cryptocurrencies

#312
post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Full disclosure: I own about $11 worth of bitcoin if I round up a bit, so this might be biased. The most convincing "point" of bitcoin I've heard is to accomodate transfer of large sums of money across borders, quickly, with minimal transaction costs and oversight. Everyone here can afford the fee to transact 8 billion dollars worth of bitcoin. And settlement happens in seconds to a couple minutes. That's appealing t…

No if you have millions or billions basic wire transfers are instant and cheap. It is more interesting for if you have a few hundred or a few thousand dollars, where a $10-$50 fee is significant. Or you want to bypass regulations or bureaucracy eg send money to a friend in Argentina or Lebanon which have currency controls.

Bitcoin's use as a way of bypassing currency controls is one of the best arguments against it, because governments, already prone to suspicion towards anything that might upset their monetary policy, will have no quarter towards anything that upsets their laws.

Re: MasterCard to open up network to cryptocurrencies

#313
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is outright scam in my view. They never have to hold bitcoin. They may as well sell paypal coin. Robinhood and Revolut do the same thing. If you can't transfer out your bitcoin, you don't have any bitcoin.

It's not any different than precious metal ETFs.

It is a similar dynamic, but I would be more inclined to trust the ETF.

1) For the metals ETFs I know about, the underlying is held by a bank which is a separate legal vehicle to the ETF. Since the ETF and the bank are both publicly-listed firms, their full-reserve commitments would be regularly audited to a high standard.

2) Brokers participate in risky activity that is unrelated to digital asset trading. This seems like a higher risk profile than a firm that is streamlined to maintain a single ETF.

3) The broker acts as custodian for your digital assets, but not for your shares.

Imagine that you buy a digital asset through your broker and they become insolvent a week later. Assuming your contract gives you no special rights, you would sit on the books as one creditor alongside unpaid vendors and unpaid employees. Years later, you may get back cents in the dollar.

Whereas you would have full and immediate rights to any ETF you had bought through that broker on the same day. They have no influence once it has settled.

Re: MasterCard to open up network to cryptocurrencies

#314
post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. It would be prohibitively expensive for the government to track down every blockchain transaction IRL to find the identity behind the wallet (if even possible). This cost rises with adoption. 2. Different crypto currencies have different roles. If you want to avoid traceability altogether, use zCash.

Some countries have explicitly put restrictions on dealing with privacy-preserving currencies like Monero and ZCash. Japanese exchanges and service providers, for example, are not allowed to touch them.

This is why the DeFi work on Ethereum is exciting, so you can have exchanges and other financial services not tied to restrictive legislation.

Re: MasterCard to open up network to cryptocurrencies

#315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm living in an EU-member country. Our currency has lost half of its value compared to the USD since 2008. How? 'Slowly and steadily.'

I think they mean mathematically how could it lose more than 100%.

My guess is they meant their equivalent of the $4 cappuccino is now $10 (or more) in their local currency, which while not mathematically correct is probably the most intuitive way to understand it (as compared to losing 60% which would more than double prices).

Not the poster though.

Re: MasterCard to open up network to cryptocurrencies

#316
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand why you're assuming we need a pure Bitcoin economy for there to be a network effect. If sufficient number of vendors accept Bitcoin that will be enough to create a network effect. Once you have a network effect with a size less than the size of the entire economy there will always be upside to own Bitcoin since that size can continue to grow.

I don't understand why you're assuming companies would willingly choose to use Bitcoin over banking alternatives. Even companies who transact in Bitcoin generally won't be sending Bitcoin blockchain transactions on the blockchain with all of the associated fees, not to mention risks of keeping your company's money in a computer program where a rogue employee or hacker could simply embezzle the money instantly and irr…

> maybe it's not a great idea to keep your company's funds tied up in one of the most volatile currencies of all time.

and they will have bought put options or sold futures or created a collar

going to have to leave that argument in last decade when these options weren't available, and educate companies that are ignorant in how hedging works

Re: MasterCard to open up network to cryptocurrencies

#317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Inflation adjusted $/sqft on average across the US housing costs exactly the same as it did in the 1970s. > Inflation adjusted Inflation is a result of monetary policy. So when you’ve adjusted the price for the monetary policy, you see that 50 years of capital accumulation and efficiency has been soaked up by monetary policy. > I admit I misspoke, because of course, monetary policy controls interest rates, but I ma…

> "I’m not sure how to proceed. The notion that one could print money and have each currency unit correspond to the same amount of physical goods is prima facie false." No, it's not, you're looking at half the equation. Value of money is a function of both supply and velocity. If velocity drops but supply increases commensurately, each unit of currency corresponds to the same amount of physical goods. [1] This should…

> No, it's not, you're looking at half the equation. Value of money is a function of both supply and velocity. If velocity drops but supply increases commensurately, each unit of currency corresponds to the same amount of physical goods. [1]

for consumer goods, “velocity” is the rate at which those goods are consumed. People aren’t generally choosing to starve themselves or pay rent on 4 apartments according to economic conditions.

i should have included “ceteris paribus” with my statement but I thought it was obviously implied.

> This should be dead obvious to you, as the money supply doubled last year but the price of Apples went up 2%. Not 100%. Same with the entire CPI basket. Housing actually got cheaper. Rent went down a ton.

Ceteris is not paribus. The increase in money supply soaked up all the decrease in prices people ‘should’ have experienced.

> We are talking in constant dollars that have a 0% notional rate of inflation. That's what inflation-adjusted means in this context.

I understand what “inflation-adjusted” means. Once you adjust for the price increase due to people’s dollars being worth less, the commodity costs the same. Of course people aren’t paying in notional inflation-adjusted dollars, they are paying in the actual dollars that have depreciated, so they end up paying more for less, because of monetary policy. The value they miss out on accrues to people who get the new money earlier.

> What do you mean by "50 years of capital accumulation"?

I mean that the capital stock of the economy has increased over the past 50 years as a result of people investing their surplus in capital goods. This results in increased productivity and (ceteris paribus) a lower real cost of goods and services.

> People don't accumulate or hold dollars for exactly this reason. They accumulate and hold assets and value, whose performance matches or exceeds inflation.

Yes, because monetary policy results in depreciation of fiat currency.

> I'm not sure what that means. Things aren't supposed to get anything as capital accumulates.

Things are supposed to get cheaper as capital accumulates because labor is more efficient when combined with tools, resulting in more outputs and the subsequent decrease in real price.

> An increase in number of currency units may or may not cause each unit to be worth less, as velocity is the missing half of the equation.

You’re missing the part where I said “ceteris paribus”, a commonly specified requirement for assertions about the connection between theory and economic reality.

> It's a straw man to say that your buying power drops 2% each year as a result of inflation. You're only penalized for inflation for the period between you receiving the dollars and using them to purchase assets whose performance exceeds inflation.

It’s not a strawman, its literally the case.

Additionally this requirement to invest dollars before they depreciate leads to asset prices skyrocketing without support from the underlying fundamentals. This leads to people who are already invested (the rich, the wealthy, the established old money, the upper class) gaining disproportionately, and new investors being priced out. Hence monetary policy is directly responsible for the rich getting richer and the poor being left behind.

Re: MasterCard to open up network to cryptocurrencies

#318
post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know, your point about Tesla has given me lots of conflict. What did I miss? Obviously this question came when I sold off my TSLA stock at 500$ thinking — it was overvalued — and then watching it rise to the equivalent of 4,000$. I reached the conclusion it’s no longer solely about cash flow and debt ratios and market cap and addressable market and whatever other traditional metrics we previously used to value co…

I think you can't judge whether TSLA is overvalued or not until they are no longer instantly selling out of all their products. People are bullish on TSLA because they have a product that many, many people want, more than they have the capability to supply. Once they have their peak production capacity and have surplus stock across all markets we will get a better idea of their true value. The most that the price of…

Yes, I agree, but I'm confident they're not worth twice the sum total of the entire car market by themselves.

> The most that the price of TSLA and BTC have in common is that both their values can be represented on a graph.

Well, that and one holds a chunk of the other. They're also surprisingly heavily correlated from a price action POV. I suspect there's a bit more going on than meets the eye. Burry tweeted the crazy level of correlation a few days ago.

Re: MasterCard to open up network to cryptocurrencies

#319
post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mastercard just tries to be relevant in an environment where they will not be relevant anymore. Just look at the Nano cryptocurrency for example: 0 fees and Crypto is going to disrupt a lot of things. If it's not clear by now, you will be in for a surprise.

Mastercard is a payment support platform. They take the burden off of the business owners and let them focus on their business instead of the minutia of interfacing with the financial system. That doesn't go away with cryptocurrencies. In fact it might be more needed than ever as there are now multiple payment networks with lots of intricacies such as coin storage, keeping track of transactions for taxes, etc. Visa a…

People can pay with their phone using a simple QR code. Merchants can check on any computer with a web browser.

How complex does Mastercard make it right now?

Like I said, it's a dinosaur ready to go extinct.

Re: MasterCard to open up network to cryptocurrencies

#320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. It would be prohibitively expensive for the government to track down every blockchain transaction IRL to find the identity behind the wallet (if even possible). This cost rises with adoption. 2. Different crypto currencies have different roles. If you want to avoid traceability altogether, use zCash.

1) Why would it be prohibitively expensive? In the face of severe enough penalties, most people would simply report their transactions as required, and report who they transacted with. The number of transactions that needed to be investigated would be a small percentage of the total, and possibly traceable through means other than cracking keys. 2) Regardless of whatever zCash is, my point is that Bitcoin's immutable…

> forced to transact with registered IDs.

It's prohibitively expensive precisely because being forced to transact with registered IDs is going to be less and less of a requirement moving forward. With DeFi exchanges, we'll see more transactions that stay out of state surveillance.

You're correct that BTC isn't ideal for privacy though. That's why zCash and Monero will also be important currencies.

Post reply on HN