The Vaccine Had to Be Used. He Used It. He Was Fired • Hacker News Board

Re: The Vaccine Had to Be Used. He Used It. He Was Fired

#241

Post by MertsA » Thu, Feb 11, 2021, 5:03 PM UTC

smnrchrds wrote: post #100

vlovich123 wrote: post #22

> Late last month, a judge dismissed the charge as groundless, after which the local district attorney vowed to present the matter to a grand jury Considering that grand juries would indict a ham sandwhich, this seems like the prosecutor is reaching just to prolong the process and pain this doctor is going through. Even assuming the best case argument for the prosecutor that he did “steal it”, he vaccinated 10 people…

> Considering that grand juries would indict a ham sandwhich I am not American. When I hear about grand juries in American media, it is usually when they refuse to indict in a case of brutality or killing by police officers, even though there is clear evidence about the incident. It seems that grand juries never indict anyone, not the other way around. Where do grand juries' biases lie in reality?

The grand jury's bias is the bias of the prosecutor trying to convince them on a one sided case. The prosecutor is the one explaining the law to them and trying to get them to agree with their view. When there's no defense to provide a rebuttal it's a lot easier to convince a jury.

Re: The Vaccine Had to Be Used. He Used It. He Was Fired

#242

Post by mcguire » Thu, Feb 11, 2021, 5:03 PM UTC

BowBun wrote: post #203

ascagnel_ wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of this comes from the Reagan-era idea of "welfare queens" -- that because the idea of "government handouts" are so enticing, people will cheat the system to get them. There are two issues with this: - "government handouts" and a reliance on welfare are typically a symptom, not a root cause, of an ailing society -- there are bigger issues at play around wealth and ownership if a large segment of the population…

I'm generally for social welfare programs, however the idea of "welfare queens (and kings)" is NOT fiction. I come from Belgium which has this problem quite notoriously. It is quite common for people to be abusing the social programs to stay unemployed and make more income than blue-collar workers. Like you allude to, I think we need to look more deeply to address this issue - why are people satisfied doing nothing a…

"I'm generally for social welfare programs, however the idea of "welfare queens (and kings)" is NOT fiction. I come from Belgium which has this problem quite notoriously. It is quite common for people to be abusing the social programs to stay unemployed and make more income than blue-collar workers."

I would like to learn more about the issue. Do you have any references handy?

Re: The Vaccine Had to Be Used. He Used It. He Was Fired

#243

Post by rjmunro » Thu, Feb 11, 2021, 5:05 PM UTC

chadash wrote: post #160

mchusma wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why I generally support universal basic income if it could replace the US safety net. Currently we spend more than it would take to eliminate poverty if we just gave it away. But the beauracratic machine just destroys so much wealth.

Do you have numbers? How much do we spend eliminating poverty? And how much would we spend on universal income? Assuming 200 million adults get universal income, that would cost $1 trillion per $5,000 of income. But $5000 hardly gets you out of poverty.

Normally Universal basic income plans are combined with abolition of most other welfare, and changes to taxes so that people on all but the lowest incomes end up paying the money back as tax. So maybe flatten all tax rates below 24%, everyone earning more than $80000 is now paying an extra $6000, but you give that back to them as the UBI. Everyone earning less than $80000 pays more tax than before but still gets $6000 UBI, so is better off.

Re: The Vaccine Had to Be Used. He Used It. He Was Fired

#244

Post by edbob » Thu, Feb 11, 2021, 5:06 PM UTC

clairity wrote: post #206

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>who cares, on the face of it, what size the government is? Until the size stops correlating with the amount of resources that must be taken from people everybody with anything to their name cares.

but again, your concern then is efficiency, so let's look at efficiency metrics directly rather than the poor proxy that size is. that also neatly sidesteps the manipulative use of "big government" as a tool by politicians to deploy power against the common interest.

You make a valid point when considering the total size of governments at all levels. However, I think what people most want to avoid is specifically an excessively large government at the federal and (to a much lesser degree) state levels. This is a worthy goal. This is not unrelated to efficiency: the legendary inefficiency of the federal government is correlated with its bloat and unaccountability, problems which are much easier to address at the state and local levels (and you can move away from the failures).

Re: The Vaccine Had to Be Used. He Used It. He Was Fired

#245

Post by mcguire » Thu, Feb 11, 2021, 5:07 PM UTC

standardUser wrote: post #140

colechristensen wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I likewise know someone who intentionally makes as little money as possible in order to take advantage of state support program. Or to be more accurate, makes as much money as possible under the various limits for benefits while living in a comfortable (essentially inherited) situation. This is a person with high education, without any major disability or impediment to working, they just choose not to work because th…

Fine. I see no problem with some small percentage of people gaming the system as long as the people who actually need help are not denied help (or forced through unreasonable hoops to get help).

You don't understand, it's better for 10 innocent people to go to jail than for one guilty one to escape.

Re: The Vaccine Had to Be Used. He Used It. He Was Fired

#246

Post by nickpp » Thu, Feb 11, 2021, 5:07 PM UTC

acover wrote: post #226

nickpp wrote: post #198

Over and over again we re-learn that the single proven way to distribute scarce resources is the free market. Anything else we tried led to abuses, aberrations, waste and in the end fewer people gaining access to that resource. I have seen this in the planned economy I grew up in, which was unable to provide even toilet paper to its people - but it was ok, because we didn’t have any food either. Our blindness to the…

I don't think this is true. In emergencies we explicitly do not allow price gouging because it just doesn't work. If it was a free market then the vaccine would cost 10k and few of those who benefit most would get it. That's not efficient or fair.

Actually freezing prices is the best way to create long term shortages. We saw that last springs when countries with free markets kept having N95 masks available, at slightly elevated prices while countries that imposed priced controls did not have any until fall.

In a free market the vaccine would’ve cost 10k for a month while producers would’ve been scrambling to increase availability and production to take advantage of this amazing opportunity. Pretty soon after the price would’ve dropped at a greatly increased availability.

Right now the vaccine is free and very few lucky ones can get it. And it’s been months.

Re: The Vaccine Had to Be Used. He Used It. He Was Fired

#247

Post by bko » Thu, Feb 11, 2021, 5:08 PM UTC

nathancahill wrote: post #3

Spent a long time reading about how vast bureaucratic inefficiencies are created by people worrying that "the wrong person" will benefit from government programs or that someone "undeserving" might get theirs before I do. This falls squarely in that bucket. Tragic.

I see it more as a power play by the regulating agencies to maintain control. NY Governor Cuomo for instance threatened severe penalties for anyone stepping out of line.

If the "undeserving" argument were true, there wouldn't be talk about increasing eligibility to the prison population, especially given their low mortality rates compared to 65+

Re: The Vaccine Had to Be Used. He Used It. He Was Fired

#248

Post by standardUser » Thu, Feb 11, 2021, 5:08 PM UTC

mcguire wrote: post #245

standardUser wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fine. I see no problem with some small percentage of people gaming the system as long as the people who actually need help are not denied help (or forced through unreasonable hoops to get help).

You don't understand, it's better for 10 innocent people to go to jail than for one guilty one to escape.

Sounds like Boomer logic to me!

Re: The Vaccine Had to Be Used. He Used It. He Was Fired

#249

Post by bko » Thu, Feb 11, 2021, 5:10 PM UTC

BowBun wrote: post #203

ascagnel_ wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of this comes from the Reagan-era idea of "welfare queens" -- that because the idea of "government handouts" are so enticing, people will cheat the system to get them. There are two issues with this: - "government handouts" and a reliance on welfare are typically a symptom, not a root cause, of an ailing society -- there are bigger issues at play around wealth and ownership if a large segment of the population…

I'm generally for social welfare programs, however the idea of "welfare queens (and kings)" is NOT fiction. I come from Belgium which has this problem quite notoriously. It is quite common for people to be abusing the social programs to stay unemployed and make more income than blue-collar workers. Like you allude to, I think we need to look more deeply to address this issue - why are people satisfied doing nothing a…

There's also cases where if you start working, you actually make less than you would by not working, due to eligibility requirements for certain programs.

Long term, not engaging in meaningful work has many downsides (substance abuse, relationship, career growth, etc) and its not just about money. But going to a grueling 9-5 to make less money for long term benefits is still a tough sell

Re: The Vaccine Had to Be Used. He Used It. He Was Fired

#250

Post by mumblemumble » Thu, Feb 11, 2021, 5:11 PM UTC

sudosysgen wrote: post #227

mumblemumble wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. But that challenge smells of whataboutism. And it's also looking at the finger rather than where it's pointing. I could just as easily have picked on health care, for example, or housing assistance programs. But I'm not trying to write a book, here. I think the more interesting phenomenon here is that seeing the negative consequences of a largely fiscally conservative cause is bringing fiscal conservative thoug…

The above posters argument is very simple. These program's impact on inefficiency and rent seeking are négligeable. Their benefits aren't.

If so, then I guess we're arguing over a straw man? Because that argument would be a great response to a suggestion that we just end welfare, but it doesn't really make much sense as a response to a comment about the idea of massively expanding it by replacing it with universal basic income.