The Vaccine Had to Be Used. He Used It. He Was Fired • Hacker News Board

Re: The Vaccine Had to Be Used. He Used It. He Was Fired

#181

Post by UncleMeat » Thu, Feb 11, 2021, 4:22 PM UTC

colechristensen wrote: post #120

ascagnel_ wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of this comes from the Reagan-era idea of "welfare queens" -- that because the idea of "government handouts" are so enticing, people will cheat the system to get them. There are two issues with this: - "government handouts" and a reliance on welfare are typically a symptom, not a root cause, of an ailing society -- there are bigger issues at play around wealth and ownership if a large segment of the population…

I likewise know someone who intentionally makes as little money as possible in order to take advantage of state support program. Or to be more accurate, makes as much money as possible under the various limits for benefits while living in a comfortable (essentially inherited) situation. This is a person with high education, without any major disability or impediment to working, they just choose not to work because th…

Of course. These people exist. Wealthy people also seek to construct their retirement portfolio in order to minimize (or even eliminate) taxes. This is especially common and valuable now with ACA subsidies.

But so what?

The goal of a program should be effectively improving the functioning of society. That can still be a real outcome even if there are people who choose to be less productive so they can obtain benefits.

Re: The Vaccine Had to Be Used. He Used It. He Was Fired

#182

Post by pas » Thu, Feb 11, 2021, 4:22 PM UTC

readthenotes1 wrote: post #132

ascagnel_ wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of this comes from the Reagan-era idea of "welfare queens" -- that because the idea of "government handouts" are so enticing, people will cheat the system to get them. There are two issues with this: - "government handouts" and a reliance on welfare are typically a symptom, not a root cause, of an ailing society -- there are bigger issues at play around wealth and ownership if a large segment of the population…

It also comes from Parkinson's Law: give a full-time employee only one thing to do and it will become a full time job, even if it could be done more expeditiously. It also comes from systems. They function to expand themselves, not to serve the purpose for which they were created.

This is also known as the Agent-Principal problem. [0]

Usually this is "solved" via "aligning incentives". [1] But as we all know from James Cameron's documentaries as he followed the Connors, it's not that easy to notice when things go awry.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principal%E2%80%93agent_proble... [1] https://intelligence.org/research/

Re: The Vaccine Had to Be Used. He Used It. He Was Fired

#183

Post by throwaway0a5e » Thu, Feb 11, 2021, 4:23 PM UTC

clairity wrote: post #144

mumblemumble wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a huge part of why, perhaps surprisingly, libertarian think tanks in the US have started pushing for universal basic income. The sheer weight of the bureaucracy that has accumulated due to this way of thinking means that replacing it with a straight-up program of unflinching wealth redistribution would actually make the government smaller . And also make markets freer. The amount of rent-seeking behavior arou…

this is an ideological argument devoid of meaningful goals to help residents and create a strong economy. who cares, on the face of it, what size the government is? size is not the goal, it's at best a poor proxy metric for (in-)efficiency, which itself is a proxy metric for how much we help people via public goods (and thereby the whole economy). rent-seeking around wic is a rounding error next to property & capital…

>who cares, on the face of it, what size the government is?

Until the size stops correlating with the amount of resources that must be taken from people everybody with anything to their name cares.

Re: The Vaccine Had to Be Used. He Used It. He Was Fired

#184

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Feb 11, 2021, 4:25 PM UTC

ceejayoz wrote: post #90

rriepe wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have a fickle king. Sometimes he executes you and sometimes he rewards you. Just because he does both doesn't mean it's a good situation.

Sometimes he's not involved at all, but people still try to blame him because they've got an ax to grind. There's no indication social media had anything to do with his actions or the ensuing punishment.

[deleted]

Re: The Vaccine Had to Be Used. He Used It. He Was Fired

#185

Post by rriepe » Thu, Feb 11, 2021, 4:26 PM UTC

ceejayoz wrote: post #90

rriepe wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have a fickle king. Sometimes he executes you and sometimes he rewards you. Just because he does both doesn't mean it's a good situation.

Sometimes he's not involved at all, but people still try to blame him because they've got an ax to grind. There's no indication social media had anything to do with his actions or the ensuing punishment.

No, he's always involved. People behave as though he is there even if he doesn't get directly involved.

Re: The Vaccine Had to Be Used. He Used It. He Was Fired

#186

Post by mcv » Thu, Feb 11, 2021, 4:26 PM UTC

ivanbakel wrote: post #174

h_anna_h wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> in bypassing policy Citation needed please, the article said that he followed the policy of not letting the vaccine go to waste.

The article says that he reports following the policy as he understood it. He also reports that he was later told he should have disposed of the vaccine or returned it, rather than caring about wastage. The county prosecutor maintains that policy directed him to act differently, since that is the basis of her case against him. So, from the prosecutor's perspective, he bypassed policy. Since I'm making a point about t…

A policy that was not written down anywhere. There's no reason to fire someone over such an informal policy that contradicts an explicit guideline. At best, this should have warranted a warning and the introduction of a clearer policy.

But in this case, the policy would still be wrong if it encouraged wasting vaccine that could have been used to save lives.

It's frankly bizarre to see people value bureaucracy over lives.

Re: The Vaccine Had to Be Used. He Used It. He Was Fired

#187

Post by vharuck » Thu, Feb 11, 2021, 4:26 PM UTC

DataWorker wrote: post #119

logicchop wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fraud is real, and vast, and if it creeps in it undermines the whole thing. What's the alternative?

Billions in unemployment fraud last year means billions in government services that will not b we going to help people that really desperately need help.

But I wonder about the value in the end. If we spend X to prevent Y dollars in fraud, then Y - X can go to people who need it more. As long as Y > X, that's good for the deserving beneficiaries.

However, from a society-level view, how much value do we get from the X spent in prevention? We're funneling money to a specific goal, so some verification is needed. But the more we verify, the more man-hours we spend on filling out and checking the paperwork. None of that work benefits society. Those people could've been doing other jobs that perform useful services. And it's not like the money going to fraudsters vanishes. At least it goes back into the economy. We should require only enough to make sure we achieve the program's goals within budget.

Figuring that out is the hard part. Hopefully smart minds have been tackling this.

Re: The Vaccine Had to Be Used. He Used It. He Was Fired

#188

Post by jfk13 » Thu, Feb 11, 2021, 4:26 PM UTC

da_big_ghey wrote: post #142

LeifCarrotson wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The DA who brought the case, Kim Ogg, is an elected official. Top Google result for her name is this campaign page: https://www.kim-ogg.com/ . Further down the list is a news article about threatening employees with performance reviews to appear at a food drive for her political benefit. Had the judge not thrown out this case, she'd have another feather in her cap, another headline for the website: "Kim Ogg puts nepo…

I am a Houstonian and absolutely hate Ogg. She bills herself as the "most progressive DA" and therefore prosecutes/does not prosecute certain things based on their political appearance. That is not what a DA should be doing, and she is the embodiment of all that is wrong with the "progressive" left these days.

Sounds like the embodiment of what's wrong with the US system of treating jobs like DA as elected posts.

Re: The Vaccine Had to Be Used. He Used It. He Was Fired

#189

Post by btilly » Thu, Feb 11, 2021, 4:27 PM UTC

Grustaf wrote: post #129

aardvarkr wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So your problem is that it’s not fair how he distributed it? You’d rather see life saving medicine trashed rather than go into a human being’s arm? How can you defend that position? It’s so unethical.

You can't separate this from the decision to open a new vial when there was only one person in line.

According to the story that decision was made, per procedure, by a nurse.

He didn't create the situation. He just tried to do the best that he could given the situation that he was in.

Re: The Vaccine Had to Be Used. He Used It. He Was Fired

#190

Post by theluketaylor » Thu, Feb 11, 2021, 4:27 PM UTC

ajford wrote: post #135

ivanbakel wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They're literally saying he should have just thrown them away instead of distributing them as best he was able. I wouldn't necessarily object to that particular policy. It's a shame to waste perfectly good medicine in a pandemic, but would we feel the same if he had not found anybody vulnerable who was available, and instead ended up vaccinating his own children, who are fit and healthy? What if, instead, he taken…

He did attempt to find the people who should have received it. He just wasn't able to find enough on a tight timeline. Honestly? As long as he made a good faith effort to distribute the doses he had available, then hell yeah I endorse him vaccinating any warm body available to him, whether it's his family or not. Now if he took money in exchange? That should be a criminal offense and he should loose his medical licen…

> As long as he made a good faith effort to distribute the doses he had available, then hell yeah I endorse him vaccinating any warm body available to him, whether it's his family or not

I agree, but I think if I were in the position of having an extra dose that needed a warm body I'd try to find someone outside my family to avoid even the appearance of a conflict of interest.