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The Vaccine Had to Be Used. He Used It. He Was Fired

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Re: The Vaccine Had to Be Used. He Used It. He Was Fired

#111

Post by Grustaf »

ceejayoz wrote: post #37
treis wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>They're literally saying he should have just thrown them away instead of distributing them as best he was able I don't understand why people make arguments like this. Throwing them away and giving them to friends and family aren't the only two options. There's a whole swath of acceptable and achievable options. Giving doses to friends and family is a pretty bright ethical line. I don't think arresting him is the rig…

> Throwing them away and giving them to friends and family aren't the only two options. With a six hour window, it's unlikely he's gonna be able to invent a fair queuing system on his own, and get applicants to it. The article indicates he tried first with EMS, police, etc. at the vaccination location. There should be state-wide efforts at this; a "we might call you at 2am to ask you if you can be to the hospital by…

> Around 6:45 at night, as the event wound down, an eligible person arrived for a shot. A nurse punctured a new vial to administer the vaccine, which activated the six-hour time limit for the 10 remaining doses.

Why would the nurse open a new vial when they know they are about to close? That is very reckless, considering that vaccination is not time critical. That person could just come back tomorrow.

Re: The Vaccine Had to Be Used. He Used It. He Was Fired

#112

Post by ajford »

golemotron wrote: post #26
rjbwork wrote: post #5

This is just Kafkaesque. People in a position of authority with blind adherence to rules intended for optimal scenarios. They're literally saying he should have just thrown them away instead of distributing them as best he was able. This whole thing is a logistical clusterfuck and they're trying to throw this dude under the bus. It's obscene.

It makes sense when you think about it. Without the rules, there's excuse to -not- find the people the vaccine is meant for and use it yourself. Anyone who thinks that this would not happen doesn't know human nature very well. They are welcome to post situations where such excuses haven't been taken advantage of. I'll take lack of replies as acceptance of my point.

He did attempt to find the 'people the vaccine is meant for'. He just wasn't able to find enough on a tight timeline.

In my opinion that makes this, at least in part, a fault of those above him. There should be a standby list with a clear expectancy of urgency. If you get a call at 2am, you either show up or get passed by. Fill it with all the front-line workers in the county or something like that first, then start pulling in the public.

There should be _no_ shortage of people willing to take this, we're just spending so much time worrying about who gets it and not enough time worrying about ensuring that every last dose is effectively used and not wasted.

Edit: Also, I only replied so you would realize that you don't have implicit agreement.

Re: The Vaccine Had to Be Used. He Used It. He Was Fired

#113

Post by valarauko »

zamadatix wrote: post #68
rjbwork wrote: post #5

This is just Kafkaesque. People in a position of authority with blind adherence to rules intended for optimal scenarios. They're literally saying he should have just thrown them away instead of distributing them as best he was able. This whole thing is a logistical clusterfuck and they're trying to throw this dude under the bus. It's obscene.

I think the logic is reasonable but the response is too strong. A doctor driving around vaccinating whoever he can find at their house is clearly not how you want to distribute the vaccine in early December, it's not going to get to the most at risk people as soon as it can and any issues that arise are a huge liability problem unless he can fix it with what's in his car. At the same time not having any plan or proce…

> A doctor driving around vaccinating whoever he can find at their house is clearly not how you want to distribute the vaccine in early December, it's not going to get to the most at risk people as soon as it can and any issues that arise are a huge liability problem unless he can fix it with what's in his car.

This is entirely reasonable, but it comes down to - what to do when faced with this situation? True, it's not going to get to the most at risk people, but what's the alternative?

Re: The Vaccine Had to Be Used. He Used It. He Was Fired

#114

Post by StillBored »

ornitorrincos wrote: post #87
StillBored wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its called leading from the rear, and that is basically what I thought when Greg Abbott (Texas gov) got his, since AFAIK he isn't in any of the identified groups. https://abc13.com/health/gov-greg-abbott-receives-covid-19-v... At least when Biden (referenced in the article) got his, he exceeded the age requirements in most states. The claim that they are doing it to show people its safe is a bit cynical IMHO.

that works if you show it publicly(and then there is the debate that its bad because you jumped the queue, or its bad because not getting a vaccine shows they aren't trustworthy) But in spain the cases that have surfaced are of mainly politicians who got the shot and tried to keep quiet about it, which think we can all agree its bad.

So, thats a loophole, just get it done with the camera's rolling?

In the US much of the vaccine resistance is a result of the news/propaganda channels a particular party (which Greg Abbot belongs to) uses to generate fear and doubt in order to win elections. So they generate the problem, then they get to help show its safe? I mean they aren't going to convince any of the hardcore conspiracy theory people they weren't just injected with saline.

Plus, many of the politicians assume they are more valuable than the political system which is designed to replace them every couple years says they are. Particularly in TX where the governorship is unusually weak.

Re: The Vaccine Had to Be Used. He Used It. He Was Fired

#115

Post by ceejayoz »

Grustaf wrote: post #111
ceejayoz wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Throwing them away and giving them to friends and family aren't the only two options. With a six hour window, it's unlikely he's gonna be able to invent a fair queuing system on his own, and get applicants to it. The article indicates he tried first with EMS, police, etc. at the vaccination location. There should be state-wide efforts at this; a "we might call you at 2am to ask you if you can be to the hospital by…

> Around 6:45 at night, as the event wound down, an eligible person arrived for a shot. A nurse punctured a new vial to administer the vaccine, which activated the six-hour time limit for the 10 remaining doses. Why would the nurse open a new vial when they know they are about to close? That is very reckless, considering that vaccination is not time critical. That person could just come back tomorrow.

There are plenty of folks for which getting to a vaccination site is already a hardship - having to get time off work, arranging transportation and childcare, etc. Doubling that effort unnecessarily leads to poor outcomes, too.

Re: The Vaccine Had to Be Used. He Used It. He Was Fired

#116

Post by lotsofpulp »

abfan1127 wrote: post #108
kiba wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chance are, the dedicated/motivated students likely have a far more supportive environment than the kids on the bottom. Increasing resources and support to the top kids will surely increase inequality, while also improving the top's capabilities. Meanwhile, the kids at the bottom get left behind.

its important to say that the vast majority of kids at the bottom get left behind because of the parents. Parents that aren't involved, don't review homework, don't instill good study habits, set their kids up for failure. There are plenty of reasons why parents don't get involved. Those reasons range from working too much, to they don't give a shit.

And parents that work odd hours, multiple jobs, have insecure income streams, and whose parents also suffered the same so they also don’t have the necessary knowledge and network for success.

Re: The Vaccine Had to Be Used. He Used It. He Was Fired

#117

Post by Grimm1 »

abfan1127 wrote: post #108
kiba wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chance are, the dedicated/motivated students likely have a far more supportive environment than the kids on the bottom. Increasing resources and support to the top kids will surely increase inequality, while also improving the top's capabilities. Meanwhile, the kids at the bottom get left behind.

its important to say that the vast majority of kids at the bottom get left behind because of the parents. Parents that aren't involved, don't review homework, don't instill good study habits, set their kids up for failure. There are plenty of reasons why parents don't get involved. Those reasons range from working too much, to they don't give a shit.

This exactly, as I stated elsewhere I was in the gifted program but because my parents were unable to be involved more thoroughly from both working whether I was in that program or not doesn't really compare to the lack of parental support in terms of how it all worked out for me.

Re: The Vaccine Had to Be Used. He Used It. He Was Fired

#118

Post by grayhatter »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #84
BeefySwain wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The really telling part to me is that (seemingly) no one from any of the organizations involved (the hospital and the prosecutors office) will come forward and outright say that what was done was immoral. They are all hiding behind a veneer of "what he did broke the rules and my job is to enforce them", which is about the weakest argument one can make in defense this sort of thing.

Covering your ass isn’t a weak defense for the underlings. There exists a leader(s) somewhere that made the rules and that can change the rules. They are the only ones responsible, and I don’t see why anyone else should stick their neck out and risk their income for it. It’s actually a strategy for leaders to want the underlings to stick their neck out, so that they can be sacrificed as a scapegoat when convenient. (…

Where does the moral line lie then? what's difference that makes 'just following orders' suddenly not apply?

In this specific case; where's the prosecutorial discretion? If it's coming down from on high, why aren't their names in this article?

Re: The Vaccine Had to Be Used. He Used It. He Was Fired

#119

Post by DataWorker »

logicchop wrote: post #83
colechristensen wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was once involved with a young woman in a homeless program which was entirely defeated by this exact "wrong person" attitude. Get a homeless person an apartment? Great. But it didn't end there, there was a constant stream of documentation requirements, your employer had to, monthly, sign paperwork about how much you earned (advertise to employers that you are/were homeless). The program punished you for making mone…

Fraud is real, and vast, and if it creeps in it undermines the whole thing. What's the alternative?

Billions in unemployment fraud last year means billions in government services that will not b we going to help people that really desperately need help.

Re: The Vaccine Had to Be Used. He Used It. He Was Fired

#120

Post by colechristensen »

ascagnel_ wrote: post #92
colechristensen wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was once involved with a young woman in a homeless program which was entirely defeated by this exact "wrong person" attitude. Get a homeless person an apartment? Great. But it didn't end there, there was a constant stream of documentation requirements, your employer had to, monthly, sign paperwork about how much you earned (advertise to employers that you are/were homeless). The program punished you for making mone…

A lot of this comes from the Reagan-era idea of "welfare queens" -- that because the idea of "government handouts" are so enticing, people will cheat the system to get them. There are two issues with this: - "government handouts" and a reliance on welfare are typically a symptom, not a root cause, of an ailing society -- there are bigger issues at play around wealth and ownership if a large segment of the population…

I likewise know someone who intentionally makes as little money as possible in order to take advantage of state support program. Or to be more accurate, makes as much money as possible under the various limits for benefits while living in a comfortable (essentially inherited) situation.

This is a person with high education, without any major disability or impediment to working, they just choose not to work because the state allows it.

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