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Elfstedentocht

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Re: Elfstedentocht

#91

Post by hobofan »

Freak_NL wrote: post #75
hobofan wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean the sort that tries to make sure that everything possible is done to ensure the safety of the participants. E.g. halos (and many other things) in F1 cars, helmets in baseball, minimizing crosswinds in ski flying, etc.. For Elfstedentocht this could mean making sure the ice is 15cms thick along the entire track, and only starting it if you are 100% sure that this is guaranteed. I would question whether the orga…

No, this is not an issue for this particular event. The last time we came close was 2012, but even then the ice was only 10 or 12cm thick on large parts of the route. This is most emphatically the result of a changing climate. On eleven of the fifteen occurrences of this event the ice measured 25cm of thickness.

Do you have any source for the historic values of ice thickness? Not questioning it, but I've tried to look around for such a statistic before writing the first comment, but I wasn't able to find anything.

Re: Elfstedentocht

#92

Post by Freak_NL »

School-Cotton wrote: post #88
Freak_NL wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is West-Frisian (Frysk), and the languages are close, but so are Dutch and German or West-Frisian and German (so not that close). I'm not getting the behaviour you describe though. It detects West-Frisian and does a passable translation, but if I force it to see Dutch as the source it makes no sense of it at all. It is also failing quite hilariously on „in smak minsken”, which means “quite a bunch of people”, but…

You are right: I tried again and I can't reproduce the behavior. Perhaps I got confused and selected Frisian twice, the first time I tried. (Google's UI lists it as simply "Frisian" for me, not West-Frisian).

I think most people call it Frisian. West-Frisian is used formally because other (mostly historic) variants exist.

What is now the province of Frisia is only a modest part of what was once a larger kingdom stretching into the North-East of modern Germany (where Ost Friesland is the name of a region in Niedersachsen still). Confusingly, in the Netherlands there is a West-Friesland as well to the West of the province, but people don't speak or understand (West-)Frisian there.

Re: Elfstedentocht

#93

Post by float4 »

vanderZwan wrote: post #60
TeMPOraL wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't 24 years well past the point of anyone caring? That's a whole generation of people becoming adults without ever experiencing the event. I think after 24 years without Superbowl, Americans would just consider it a historical curiosity, and holding it again wouldn't be a national priority.

It only makes the event more mythological. Also, it's easy for non-Dutch to underestimate how big of a deal speedskating is to the Dutch (and how big of a deal the Dutch are in speedskating). EDIT: I'll attempt to give an impression. The medal count at the 2018 Winter Olympics might be a good starting point, look at how the Dutch dominated that event[0]. Keep in mind that we're a really tiny nation, so that suggests…

> Maybe the US is too big for a thing like this

I think you yourself don't realise that not everyone in the Netherlands cares about speed skating and the Elfstedentocht.

I'm Dutch. Early twenties. I go roller blading in the summer, and I speed skate in the winter if weather permits.

But the Elfstedentocht? It has never taken place during my life. My friends and I don't care about the Elfstedentocht at all because we've simply never experienced it. We don't get the "Elfstedentochtkoorts" whenever the mercury drops below 0. Not at all.

> deeply embedded in the Dutch national identity, arguably even more than soccer

I bet the average young person from Rotterdam cares a whole lot more about Feyenoord and the Dutch football team than they care about some 200km speed skating contest that very rarely takes place in a province in the north.

Re: Elfstedentocht

#94

Post by jacquesm »

vanderZwan wrote: post #60
TeMPOraL wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't 24 years well past the point of anyone caring? That's a whole generation of people becoming adults without ever experiencing the event. I think after 24 years without Superbowl, Americans would just consider it a historical curiosity, and holding it again wouldn't be a national priority.

It only makes the event more mythological. Also, it's easy for non-Dutch to underestimate how big of a deal speedskating is to the Dutch (and how big of a deal the Dutch are in speedskating). EDIT: I'll attempt to give an impression. The medal count at the 2018 Winter Olympics might be a good starting point, look at how the Dutch dominated that event[0]. Keep in mind that we're a really tiny nation, so that suggests…

"our sport" is Fierljeppen.

Re: Elfstedentocht

#95

Post by jacquesm »

the-dude wrote: post #53
Freak_NL wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And as our prime minister strongly advised his fellow countrymen to avoid travelling abroad unnecessarily last October as the virus spread and our economy took a hit, our king and his royal family sat on their royal arses in a government plane en-route to the private royal holiday home in Greece for a well-deserved royal holiday break. He was already aware of the prime minister's message before he left; he just didn'…

You forgot to mention we pay him a lot of money each year.

And not just him, but also every other royal hanger on including his 18 year old brat that gets 100K per month.

Re: Elfstedentocht

#96

Post by Freak_NL »

polytely wrote: post #90
Freak_NL wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's pretty cool. About the province's name though: it's Fryslân (West Frisian (a language spoken in the province) and official Dutch), Frisia (English), or Friesland (Dutch vernacular). The reason it is called 'Friesland' on English language Wikipedia has to with the fact that there are (seemingly) no acceptable sources that can prove that Frisia is what most Frisian folk call their province in English, and what Eng…

> no acceptable sources that can prove that Frisia is what most Frisian folk call their province in English That is fascinating, I get why Wikipedia has to be careful with what sources are acceptable, but it produces the weirdest conflicts sometimes. Thanks for correcting me and sharing this!

Don't get me started. There is a town in this province called Grou, which was called Grouw (extra 'w') in Dutch until the Frisian (which was always 'Grou') and Dutch names were made the same thirty years ago. It's only a small town (a village really), so the further you get away from the province, the less known it is.

This is fine.

In the province of Fryslân many people speak Dutch as the first (or only) language, and many people Frisian. The town is called 'Grou' in nearly all Dutch language publications. That includes tourist sites in Dutch, newspapers in Dutch, municipal records in Dutch, the local train station, the bus stops, and most importantly, what the inhabitants of the village call themselves, in Frisian, as well as is in Dutch.

This is fine.

So on the Dutch language Wikipedia, the village is stubbornly called 'Grouw', because that is its Dutch name (it isn't). And the Wikipedians whose hobby it is to defend such choices go to extreme lengths to defend this choice. It doesn't matter that the ground-truth is that the old Dutch name is no longer used (in Dutch!), but only that there are no sources that are not government sources (because these are biased to the formal name, which might not be what people use), and is not a local source, because, hey, the locals are all Frisians (who often speak Dutch as their first language), and this is the Dutch Wikipedia. There is however, an academic source from the official Dutch language institute that lists the old name as the Dutch name of that village, and until that list is changed, Wikipedia will bravely defend the use of a name no one uses.

I think the relevant Wikipedia policy that makes this possible will change some time soon, which in local Wikipedia time means a few more years of this nonsense.

The village itself mostly doesn't care, and just goes on calling itself whatever it bloody well pleases them (which is, barring some odd exceptions, Grou).

I live in the same municipality and find this Wikipedia situation amusing/annoying/disturbing, because Wikipedia is the first thing anyone writing about the village grabs for the bare facts. That the name there is simply and plainly wrong is noted by many, but not by all, which is, incidentally, also why Facebook and Instragram automatically tag posts and addresses from Grou as 'Grouw', thus further perpetuating an untruth.

Sorry for the rant. :)

Re: Elfstedentocht

#97

Post by jacquesm »

gpvos wrote: post #42
aarchi wrote: post #14

I've been using inline roller skates as my primary mode of transportation for the past month. The city I am currently in was clearly not designed for bike or skate traffic, but some newer areas are more accommodating. I've managed to do anything I would have used a car for, on skates. It certainly requires more logistical creativity, but it's a much more enjoyable experience and has no adverse environmental effects.…

The cold is grueling though.

Nothing you can't cure with some newspapers under your clothing.

Re: Elfstedentocht

#98

Post by mcv »

holoduke wrote: post #47
Freak_NL wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not worth the risk. The organising committee has ruled out the event happening this year because of Covid and the risk of creating a super-spreader event.

There is no risk. Corona hysteria has gone out of hand. Even here on hacker news. Elfstedentocht is a perfect moment to say goodbye to all Corona measures and get back to normal life and accept that the virus is amongst us.

It would be a shame to overwhelm hospitals and have thousands more die just when the end is within reach through vaccination.

Re: Elfstedentocht

#99

Post by Freak_NL »

hobofan wrote: post #91
Freak_NL wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, this is not an issue for this particular event. The last time we came close was 2012, but even then the ice was only 10 or 12cm thick on large parts of the route. This is most emphatically the result of a changing climate. On eleven of the fifteen occurrences of this event the ice measured 25cm of thickness.

Do you have any source for the historic values of ice thickness? Not questioning it, but I've tried to look around for such a statistic before writing the first comment, but I wasn't able to find anything.

No primary source (although these exist obviously), but the Royal Netherlands Meteorological Institute has a summary:

https://www.knmi.nl/kennis-en-datacentrum/uitleg/ijsdikte-en...

Re: Elfstedentocht

#100

Post by vanderZwan »

float4 wrote: post #93
vanderZwan wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It only makes the event more mythological. Also, it's easy for non-Dutch to underestimate how big of a deal speedskating is to the Dutch (and how big of a deal the Dutch are in speedskating). EDIT: I'll attempt to give an impression. The medal count at the 2018 Winter Olympics might be a good starting point, look at how the Dutch dominated that event[0]. Keep in mind that we're a really tiny nation, so that suggests…

> Maybe the US is too big for a thing like this I think you yourself don't realise that not everyone in the Netherlands cares about speed skating and the Elfstedentocht. I'm Dutch. Early twenties. I go roller blading in the summer, and I speed skate in the winter if weather permits. But the Elfstedentocht? It has never taken place during my life. My friends and I don't care about the Elfstedentocht at all because we'…

You make a good point, and I think I could have phrased that more clearly. I meant that it arguably is more Dutch than soccer is, because soccer is big in every country that isn't the US.

But you're right that I didn't take age into account. I'm in my late thirties, I remember skating on natural ice almost every winter during my childhood. I don't know if you had the same experience.

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