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Pseudophilosophy encourages confused, self-indulgent thinking

psyche.co

211–220 of 242 posts

Re: Pseudophilosophy encourages confused, self-indulgent thinking

#211
post #210
post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You didn't prove your god.

There are many proofs: - God is greater than the greatest imaginable thing, so must exist (this one is proven to be logically valid with computational theorem prover, and Bertrand Russell even said it was sound at one point in his life) - the world is intelligently designed - there must be a first cause, and that must be God - nothing in this world is perfect so there must be a transcendently perfect being - we can o…

You and I have very different ideas of what the word ‘proof’ means. I have no doubt this is how it looks to you. From where I sit, we have theism and a lot of nebulous thought experiments that gel with the way religious minds already think, and atheism which is simply the default until the day God decides to grace us with a press conference.

Re: Pseudophilosophy encourages confused, self-indulgent thinking

#212
post #22

> Often, it’s due to simple misunderstandings (such as confusing truth with belief or knowledge), but sometimes it’s due rather to wilful obscurity Sorry, but the pseudophilosopher here is the author of the article. He can't disambiguate between truth as some property of the universe/time-space/actual historical occurence, and truth as it matters to us, and thinks that just because Foucault doesn't spell the distinct…

I agree that this article is rehashing the age-old continental vs. analytical debate, I disagree that because the debate is old, it is thus worthless. I see many defending the "perfectly clear" meaning of continental philosophers, even if they don't obviously build up a clear argument from assumptions like a "10 year old" analytic philosopher might do. Many, in my view, are forgetting just quite how obscurant many of…

>Many, in my view, are forgetting just quite how obscurant many of these philosophers are.

Some continental philosophers hide bad ideas or unclear thinking with obscure prose. But some analytic philosophers impose bad ideas and hide the lack of clarity in their thinking by rejecting whole areas of reality, experience, etc. from their examination, and then pretending the simplified model them came up with is great interpretation of the real world, the corners they cut are irrelevant, and so on.

Kind like the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spherical_cow thing.

>but this passage (from Judith Butler), for instance, is close-to-incomprehensible to me

Took it up as a challenge, and did 3 takes, the extended, the TL;DR; and the ELI18. Please tell me whether you like it :-)

Expanded version:

Some used to say that Capital (money/rich people/economic structures) influenced social relations to function in the same form [homologous] as Capital itself functions (that is, it turned social relations once mediated by nobleness, morals, religion, custom, etc. into economic relations/exchanges). [1]

Nowadays, we see that control over society [hegemony] works through power relations (relations between people with different levels of social power), that are subject to repetition [actions like marriage repeated as custom, versions of truth perpetuated through repetition in education and official historical accounts], convergence [many power holders -e.g. school, church, state, news, etc.- aligning and forcing the same ideas and thus establishing them] and rearticulation [power holders come up with new social norms, or articulate older ideas in new ways while continuing their lording over society aka "hegemony"].

In short, we had a static structural view that "Capital changes society in its image" and we now see that "Power relations change society in a dynamic way, through repetition, convergence, and rearticulation of ideas and social norms".

Both of those views are still answers about the question how power (in the old view, the Capital through the structural influence of economy on society, in the new view, hegemony, that is those with the upper hand in power relations - not necessarily just Capitalists, but also e.g. men over women, clergy over believers, the press over the public and so on) influence/run society.

This move, from the old way of seeing how power influences society to the new way makes us see that the way social structures are imposed changes over time (and is amenable to change).

This move, thus, marks a shift from the way Althusser considered structures as fossilized theoretical objects, to a new, dynamic way of seeing power over society [as contingent], and makes us see the shaping of social structures ("hegemony") as tied to different temporary strategies and positions as it constantly re-invents itself.

===

TL;DR;

Capitalism doesn't just shape how we live [social structures] in its image, by making everything an economic exchange.

Rather, those having power in various domains (the "hegemony"), influence how we live through repetition, scratching each other's back and pushing to the same direction [convergence], and by inventing new BS to convince us what we should be doing (re-articulation).

This means the shaping of how we live is more dynamic than thought (also implied that this allows for more opportunities to change it).

===

ELI18

Control is not just about money and capitalists making us their bitches and only caring about money, bro. The Man controls us by overflowing us with the same BS over and over, with getting along with others with power to fuck us over, and by coming up with new shit when we don't buy his previous BS anymore.

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[1] This is similar to Conway's law: "Any organization that designs a system (defined broadly) will produce a design whose structure is a copy of the organization's communication structure". It's also how Marx described Capital working: changing the world to its image, changing older ways people related - e.g. lord and peasant, husband and wife, etc. - to economic relations

Re: Pseudophilosophy encourages confused, self-indulgent thinking

#213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> is close-to-incomprehensible to me Because it's written for an audience of people who are very familiar with structuralism, Althusser, and the general development of Marxist philosophy over a 200 year period of time. This is no different than a paper like "Attention is All You Need" expecting you to have a background in neural networks, recurrent neural networks specifically, neural-language models, and the transfo…

It's still difficult to parse. If I replace the parts that I don't understand with variables, I get > The move from a in which is understood to structure brought the question of temporality into the thinking of structure, and marked a shift from a form of that takes as theoretical objects to one in which the insights into the inaugurate a renewed conception of hegemony as bound up with the . Consider all the differen…

Check my interpretation above (I did 3 levels, expanded simplified, quite simplified, and explain-it-to-me-like-I'm-18).

It is indeed tedious writing, but her audience isn't the general public, is other academics and people who get off with this sort of think and have read 100+ other books on the same subjects.

So, it's more like Dijkstra writing something to Knuth (and laying the technical language thick to save time), more than an O'Reilly book or a Hacker Noon post.

Re: Pseudophilosophy encourages confused, self-indulgent thinking

#214
post #211
post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are many proofs: - God is greater than the greatest imaginable thing, so must exist (this one is proven to be logically valid with computational theorem prover, and Bertrand Russell even said it was sound at one point in his life) - the world is intelligently designed - there must be a first cause, and that must be God - nothing in this world is perfect so there must be a transcendently perfect being - we can o…

You and I have very different ideas of what the word ‘proof’ means. I have no doubt this is how it looks to you. From where I sit, we have theism and a lot of nebulous thought experiments that gel with the way religious minds already think, and atheism which is simply the default until the day God decides to grace us with a press conference.

There are tight logical proofs. Note I point out the ontological argument is now validated by computer. I am merely sketching them above. I also disagree atheism is the default. As Einstein says, simplify as much as possible, but no further. Atheism is incapable of explaining reality as we experience it. While simple it lacks explanatory power. Saying atheism is the default due to simplicity is like saying nothing is a better explanation than something because nothingness is simpler than something, which is clearly the wrong way to go about picking theories. Monotheism is our most parsinomous theory to date.

Re: Pseudophilosophy encourages confused, self-indulgent thinking

#215
post #200
post #22

> Often, it’s due to simple misunderstandings (such as confusing truth with belief or knowledge), but sometimes it’s due rather to wilful obscurity Sorry, but the pseudophilosopher here is the author of the article. He can't disambiguate between truth as some property of the universe/time-space/actual historical occurence, and truth as it matters to us, and thinks that just because Foucault doesn't spell the distinct…

To me it seems like this is the trouble: for you, reading Foucault, it is clear what is meant by truth and that the word is constrained to a narrow scope. But to others, including me, it is not at all clear how far the scope goes. So if the defense of this ambiguity is to require everyone to read several books by the author first, I find it unacceptable. Without clarity, people can think they agree, while they disagr…

>To me it seems like this is the trouble: for you, reading Foucault, it is clear what is meant by truth and that the word is constrained to a narrow scope. But to others, including me, it is not at all clear how far the scope goes.

Well, why would it be clear from the start (without familiarity)?

I mean, what "weight" on a NN means is not clear to me until I study machine learning, right?

Then I find out that it doesn't have the same meaning as it does in dietary terms, physics, or legal matters (the "weight of the situation").

For people reading Foucault when he wrote it, which is theory-obsessed bibliophiles in 1960-1980s Paris academic and student and political world, primarily, it was as clear as would be for Peter Norvig to read an AI paper and understanding everything.

Re: Pseudophilosophy encourages confused, self-indulgent thinking

#216
post #22

> Often, it’s due to simple misunderstandings (such as confusing truth with belief or knowledge), but sometimes it’s due rather to wilful obscurity Sorry, but the pseudophilosopher here is the author of the article. He can't disambiguate between truth as some property of the universe/time-space/actual historical occurence, and truth as it matters to us, and thinks that just because Foucault doesn't spell the distinct…

You gave some examples of what this kind of truth doesn’t cover. Fire is hot. Australia exists. This table is wooden. The sun is hot. Could you give some examples of what it does cover?

"Abortion is murder"

"Gays are sick"

"Orange man bad"

"Your daughter needs a lobotomy"

"We are bringing democracy to Iraq"

"Drugs are bad"

"We need to stop/continue growing the national debt"

Just the tip of the iceberg.

Re: Pseudophilosophy encourages confused, self-indulgent thinking

#217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You blame this "de-domestication", this guardedness, on the spread of Foucault-esque ideas about the nature of truth. My counter-hypothesis - maybe this is what happens when the heights of power and wealth keep getting higher and higher. We are transforming more and more into a dog-eat-dog society. This is how civilizations have fallen repeatedly over the past and we are increasingly turning to a new gilded age.

A lot more wealth and power these days is coming from value creation rather than political or historical roots. Or, as was the case of the gilded age, people from poor countries migrating to a country that was rapidly enriching its citizens.

A majority of private wealth is inherited (not earned as income) by the top 5% wealthiest households.

How is inheriting wealth creating value?

Re: Pseudophilosophy encourages confused, self-indulgent thinking

#218
post #210
post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You didn't prove your god.

There are many proofs: - God is greater than the greatest imaginable thing, so must exist (this one is proven to be logically valid with computational theorem prover, and Bertrand Russell even said it was sound at one point in his life) - the world is intelligently designed - there must be a first cause, and that must be God - nothing in this world is perfect so there must be a transcendently perfect being - we can o…

> God is greater than the greatest imaginable thing, so must exist (this one is proven to be logically valid with computational theorem prover)

Logical validity is a very weak thing to demonstrate (it is trivial to construct a logically valid argument for any position), to be a proof you'd need to show soundness. https://iep.utm.edu/val-snd/#:~:text=A%20deductive%20argumen....

Sure, if I give an axiom that “The greatest imaginable thing must exist”, “God is an imaginable thing”, and “God is greater than any other imaginable thing”, a computational theorem prover will validate “God must exist”.

This doesn’t prove God exists. It just proves either God exists or one of your axioms are wrong.

> the world is intelligently designed

That’s not a proof, or even proven, just an unprovable conjecture.

> there must be a first cause, and that must be God

Those are two unproven claims, (“There must be a First Cause” and “If there is a First Cause, it must be God”), not a proof.

> nothing in this world is perfect so there must be a transcendently perfect being

That’s just a non-sequitur. Even taking the premise to be true, it does not (at all) lead to the conclusion.

> we can only be satisfied be an infinite being, so the object of our desire lies beyond this world

The “we can only be satisfied” part is unproven (and unprovable), and the other part doesn’t follow from it. That there must exist something that fulfills are desire to be satisfied is wishful thinking, not some kind of logical necessity, so even an infinite being was necessary for that that doesn’t mean such a being must exist.

> moral laws exist and require a law giver

All “moral laws” which provably exist are attributable to a huan lawgiver. Any other “moral laws” are speculative, as is any other lawgiver.

> our mind is not reducible to our body, and must have been created by an even greater being

The premise is not true, and isn’t even related to the conclusion. If it were true it would require a mind to have some nonphysical component, not “an even greater being” as a creator.

> jesus existed, claimed to be God, and rose from the dead according to reliable historical documentation

None of that is true based on “reliable historical documentation”

Re: Pseudophilosophy encourages confused, self-indulgent thinking

#219
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the modern atheists are clueless when it comes to the theism discussion.

Name one prominent modern atheist that is clueless when it comes to the theism discussion and present one point he/she misrepresents/lacks understanding of.

Dawkins thinks that the first three "Ways" of Aquinas all hinge on the premise that a chain of causes can't proceed infinitely backward in time. This is a standard misreading that could be straightened out by a quick perusal of secondary literature, or just by reading a little more Aquinas, who makes clear elsewhere that he thinks the universe does not, in principle, need to have a beginning in time.

Re: Pseudophilosophy encourages confused, self-indulgent thinking

#220
post #164
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the modern atheists are clueless when it comes to the theism discussion.

Theism is bullshit, as much as people reading cards, voodoo or the horoscopes.

The problem with Atheism is no one will agree on the basic ground rules for a conversation. For example if I say I'm not an Atheist because I don't care to subscribe to a specific definition of god upon which to focus my lack of belief, I get accused of propping up a Straw Man.

It's clear that religion exists, it's impossible to find a human culture that lacks it. But the minute you try to put the discussion on a more rigorous footing the process seems to fall apart, hence the term pseudophilosophy. Carl Sagan was described as not wanting to be called an Atheist because that already requires knowledge that has not been introduced into the conversation. I guess that makes him an epistemological agnostic but even that choice of terminology can be challenged.

So where is one expected to go with this apparent dilemma?

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