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John McWhorter: The Neoracists

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211–220 of 261 posts

Re: John McWhorter: The Neoracists

#211
post #133
post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That third-wave racism is mainstream. That there are large numbers of people who subscribe to the ten points that McWhorter lists.

Which of the ten are not mainstream? Surely you agree some are held by significant numbers of people. Take his #3 for example. You haven’t heard people claiming “Silence is violence?” While decrying the Karens’ inability to just listen?

> Which of the ten are not mainstream?

All of them except #3 and #10, and neither of those are contradictions (the idea that #10 is involves the fallacy of division, the idea that #3 is...IDK what the shortest route to that would be; mistaking “a > b” for “b = 0”, metaphorically, I guess.)

And that's for “mainstream among radical antiracists” not, mainstream-mainstream.

Re: John McWhorter: The Neoracists

#212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know if John McWhorter is an expert on racial politics. I do know having opinions and a platform isn't the same thing.

I have opinions on you, but I wouldn't call myself an expert. If, however, I held a podcast on you discussing your actions and behaviors for 14 years, and had written 4 books chronicling your exploits (not including a new one about to be published) and had reached hundreds of thousands of people with a robust interpretation of who you are and what you care about - I'd say most would call me an expert? If some random…

I said nothing about credentials. Or if his ideas are worth my time. This article is full of straw men but I'd give him another chance. I just said opinions and a platform don't prove expertise.

You could pontificate about me for 14 years without learning more than you know now. Saying robust interpretation just begs the question.

Re: John McWhorter: The Neoracists

#213

I'd recommend reading Ibram X. Kendi's counter to another piece by McWorther which demonstrates similar straw man rhetoric (pointed out by lisper) as this piece: agglomerating disparate positions from hundreds of people and pointing to a lack of internal consistency in such disparate points of view. Well yeah, if you assemble myriad opinions about racism in society in a long list, many of them won't be coherent. It's…

Why is it naive or calculating to look for coherence in a world-view?

> Why is it naive or calculating to look for coherence in a world-view?

It's naive or calculating to take carefully selected elements from the disparate positions of different people in a diverse group as a “world-view”, much less to demand that that faked-up strawman of worldview be held to a standard of internal consistency.

Re: John McWhorter: The Neoracists

#214
post #129
post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To which proposition?

That third-wave racism is mainstream. That there are large numbers of people who subscribe to the ten points that McWhorter lists.

> That third-wave racism is mainstream.

That antiracism can be meaningfully analyzed in waves and that, if it is, what McWhorter describes as Third Wave Antiracism is meaningfully one of them are all, for that matter.

AFAICT “Third Wave Antiracism” is just something McWhorter latched on to because it provides an excuse to dust off the template of standard establishment and right-wing critiques of Fourth Wave Feminism, including the implicit acknowledgement that the previous waves were good, and deploy them in defense of the continued neglect of the marginalized by elites in favor of victim and advocate blaming.

Re: John McWhorter: The Neoracists

#215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An enormous amount of "being against identity politics" is itself identity politics. The most blatant example is "all lives matter", a deliberate misunderstanding of what "black lives matter" means. It's white identity politics, predicated on the assumption that whiteness is the default for human beings, and so anything that addresses issues that don't apply to them is ipso facto racist. I interpret accusations of "i…

This assessment is very wrong. While All Lives Matter as a slogan is completely tone deaf, it does not in any way demonstrate that 'whiteness is the default for human beings'. These people want to call attention to the fact that there doesn't appear to be racial bias in lethal police shootings, there's no clear evidence that blacks are disproportionately murdered by cops than whites when armed conflict disparities be…

Black Lives Matter isn't just about lethal police shootings.

Re: John McWhorter: The Neoracists

#216

The angle nobody ever mentions on this issue is that nothing mass-produces racism and extremist political views more than treating an entire generation of young men as though they are automatically racist, regardless of their actions, or lack of action. Most people under 40 right now were raised to be completely ready to forget about race and treat it like a non-issue. In response, a lot of well-intentioned and non-b…

> nothing mass-produces racism and extremist political views more than treating an entire generation of young men as though they are automatically racist, regardless of their actions, or lack of action.

To the extent the hypothetical condition here describes something that actually happened anywhere recently and not a pure counterfactual irrelevancy, I think it's pretty clearly not true, because no recent generation of “young men” has been more effectively manufactured into an army of racist than has ever occurred by any other means.

> Most people under 40 right now were raised to be completely ready to forget about race and treat it like a non-issue.

[citation needed]

Re: John McWhorter: The Neoracists

#217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An enormous amount of "being against identity politics" is itself identity politics. The most blatant example is "all lives matter", a deliberate misunderstanding of what "black lives matter" means. It's white identity politics, predicated on the assumption that whiteness is the default for human beings, and so anything that addresses issues that don't apply to them is ipso facto racist. I interpret accusations of "i…

This assessment is very wrong. While All Lives Matter as a slogan is completely tone deaf, it does not in any way demonstrate that 'whiteness is the default for human beings'. These people want to call attention to the fact that there doesn't appear to be racial bias in lethal police shootings, there's no clear evidence that blacks are disproportionately murdered by cops than whites when armed conflict disparities be…

The tone deafness is in watching a man be murdered in front of you and saying, "They also kill white people". That's not about somebody gathering statistics. It's about the fact that clearly you're looking for statistics to support your cause instead of responding to the fact that a man was murdered and being outraged by it.

If you had started by joining in a chant to lock up the police officers involved, they might have listened to you after they were. Instead, it looks exactly like you're finding excuses to let those police officers off, and that's way more tone deaf than the slogan.

Re: John McWhorter: The Neoracists

#218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This assessment is very wrong. While All Lives Matter as a slogan is completely tone deaf, it does not in any way demonstrate that 'whiteness is the default for human beings'. These people want to call attention to the fact that there doesn't appear to be racial bias in lethal police shootings, there's no clear evidence that blacks are disproportionately murdered by cops than whites when armed conflict disparities be…

Black Lives Matter isn't just about lethal police shootings.

In fact, the focal event which led to it was not a police shooting, but the perceived lack of accountability for a non-police homicide.

Re: John McWhorter: The Neoracists

#219
post #194
post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Some might object and say you have obviate the need for that taboo by just not having affirmative action, but the problem with that is that it might take orders of magnitude longer to wash away the effects of the unjust generational racism in the area in question. There seems to be a belief kicking around that if we could just help minorities in the right way, racism would go away faster. I don't think this is so.…

> There seems to be a belief kicking around that if we could just help minorities in the right way, racism would go away faster. > I don't think this is so. Time after time in US history, the government has tried to institute "helpful" social programs to lift black people up. Time after time, those efforts have failed. Any time that blacks start to build some wealth for themselves, the government comes in to "help" a…

> One problem with this line of argument is that it is often advanced in bad faith by people whose actual goal is to avoid addressing the problem at all.

Why does the intent of the person making the argument matter? The argument stands on its own merits or it doesn't.

> Another problem with the "do nothing and let it work itself on its own" approach is that it goes against many conceptions of justice.

Firstly, nobody said "do nothing." There are plenty of ways to help underprivileged people that _don't_ take their skin color into account. Secondly, do you think that affirmative action does not go against many conceptions of justice?

> If you repeatedly stole money from me, most people wouldn't consider the matter settled if you got to keep what you stole and were merely prevented from stealing yet more in the future: justice requires at least some effort to repair the past damage, even though those efforts usually quite imperfect (e.g. monetary compensation for wrongful death).

OK, let's run with your example. Let's say I stole a bunch of money from you over a period of years and blew it all on drugs. I get caught, go to court, am found guilty. I have no money (or very little, certainly not enough to pay you back), and eventually the drugs catch up to me and I die. But I have a son. Would you submit that "justice" is you collecting money from my son?

That's essentially what's happening. Nobody alive in the US today owns a slave, nor were they a slave. You can spend literally forever talking in circles about the effects of history on people of present day. Yes, things like slavery, Jim Crow, and redlining had bad impacts on black communities. Do we spend forever talking about it? No. And who gets to decide when the wrong has been "righted", anyway?

What we can do is try make society like the society we want to see. Is it "perfect"? No, it will never be. But it's better than playing swing-the-social-pendulum for another 200 years.

The whole point of my original post, and what so many people miss, is how the effort to "repair past damage" _also has negative effects_. Nobody at the time thought about the fact that welfare was trapping blacks in poverty. But it did. A well-intentioned policy change at that time arguably did more harm than good.

Today, I can tell you with confidence [1] that there are lots of white people who have taken notice that medical schools, universities, government institutions, big companies, etc. are happy to lower the bar for black folks. This has two problems: the first is that it doesn't feel fair, which is going to enrage people when the whole conversation is about what's fair. The second is that high-achieving black people will be perceived as less competent by their peers.

> I would guess that a significant contributor to the problems you outlined was an unwillingness to go the full measure to address the problem

What would "full measure" be?

[1]: with over ten anecdotal experiences, because something like this is not "socially acceptable" to study

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