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John McWhorter: The Neoracists

persuasion.community

171–180 of 261 posts

Re: John McWhorter: The Neoracists

#171
post #31

Question, because I dont know. Do identity politics help or hurt racism? My knee jerk reaction is that is highlights differences and can cause folks to dig their heels in on issues surrounding race/gender/sexuality/ . However pretending that all of these sorts of differences dont exist seems a bit naive at best and boneheaded at worst. What is the path forward? How do you integrate different races/cultures/etc in a t…

> Do identity politics help or hurt racism?

Racism is identity politics.

Re: John McWhorter: The Neoracists

#172
Wow, been a while since I've seen an article constructed almost entirely by stringing together strawman arguments.

Is this the output of one of those new GPT algos? Or is it just a markov chain trained on snippets of reason.com articles?

Re: John McWhorter: The Neoracists

#173

I wish we could stop flagging posts like this. The discussion is thoughtful, and the topic is interesting.

Flagging is the digital equivalent of throwing a temper tantrum when the balance of your echo chamber has been disturbed.

I don't know if that's fair. It certainly can be that, but it's also nice to be able to remove things like:

- blogspam

- flame bait (with the obvious caveats)

- excessive reposts

etc.

It just sucks when something like this gets swept up.

Re: John McWhorter: The Neoracists

#174

Religion has no place in the classroom, in the halls of ivy, in our codes of ethics, or in deciding how we express ourselves, and almost all of us spontaneously understand that and see any misunderstanding of the premise as backward. Yet since about 2015, a peculiar contingent has been slowly headlocking us into making an exception, supposing that this new religion is so incontestably good, so gorgeously surpassing m…

From a clinical psychological perspective, one of the things you often see in a therapeutic setting is that people fall prey to behavioral patterns they don't fully understand. Often, they don't understand them because they're deliberately ignoring them. I've found people who build an identity around hyper-rationality (e.g. logical positivists) to be -- on average -- some of the most emotionally-driven people. For ex…

It is usually a case of "the lady doth protest too much". They project their own emotionality onto others while professing to follow logic and restraint. I'm not a trained psychologist by any means but is the modern cultural obsession with image a kind of widespread narcissism? I see these self-professions of rationalism as just another flavor of the same thing "look at me, I'm special, I'm very logical". Furthermore I speculate if the modern world with the gray dullness of equality, democracy, and mass culture drives people to find ways to differentiate from the rest. I'm interested on what's your take as I too have seen religious thought in the loudest atheists.

One interesting essay on the history of some philosophies and worldviews you might like is Eric Vogelin's Science, Politics and Gnosticism (1968). Here he traces a lot of modern thought back to the early Gnostic religion. The lack of self-reflection and particularly the righteousness I see today makes me think his point is very accurate.

Re: John McWhorter: The Neoracists

#175
post #6

I haven't read the article yet, but McWhorter is the mastermind behind Lexicon Valley, a linguistics podcast and perhaps my favorite podcast of all times. McWhorter is both a bona-fide expert and a thoughtful, funny communicator - a rare combination. Oh, and he's also into musical theater, as you will learn very, very quickly if you listen to any Lexicon Valley episode. https://slate.com/podcasts/lexicon-valley

> McWhorter is both a bona-fide expert

On linguistics? I'm willing to assume that for the sake of argument. On racial politics? Given his writing on that issue (and not just the current piece) the generous assumption is “no, not at all, he's just a blowhard that's been given a platform because he can spin a tale that people in power like to hear well”.

Being a “bona fide expert” in a different field plus being black doesn't make you an expert on racial politics/social movements.

Re: John McWhorter: The Neoracists

#176
post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They don't mention it because it's not true and an obvious rationalization for already existing behavior. Sorry but throwing the N word around and casual racism existed before social media. The "I'm not the racist you are" is childish and unfortunately par for the course in online discourse now.

The original post never mentions the n word or social media. What are you even trying to say?

The N word is a well known example of racist speech/action and social media is often where these uses are drug up and litigated.

But I don't use my identity as a white male to paint myself a victim, so maybe I'm off base? Are there other avenues where these previously non-racists were bullied into becoming racists?

Re: John McWhorter: The Neoracists

#177
post #114

The OP was flagged to death yesterday, and this is an attempt to recreate a comment I couldn't submit. > Black students must be admitted to schools via adjusted grade and test score standards to ensure a representative number of them and foster a diversity of views in classrooms. But it is racist to assume a black student was admitted to a school via racial preferences, and racist to expect them to represent the “div…

> Some might object and say you have obviate the need for that taboo by just not having affirmative action, but the problem with that is that it might take orders of magnitude longer to wash away the effects of the unjust generational racism in the area in question.

There seems to be a belief kicking around that if we could just help minorities in the right way, racism would go away faster.

I don't think this is so. Time after time in US history, the government has tried to institute "helpful" social programs to lift black people up. Time after time, those efforts have failed. Any time that blacks start to build some wealth for themselves, the government comes in to "help" and screws it all up.

Let's look at something like desegregation. Every reasonable person will agree that desegregation needed to happen, but it was rushed and the consequences of it weren't considered like they ought to be.

Black students, many of whom previously went to schools that were less good, were now integrated with racist white students and faculty. So while the "education" part may have been better, they were too concerned with being bullied to actually get a decent education at all. The net result? A poorer education that they would have got at their "worse" black-only school.

Additionally, black-owned businesses were thoroughly destroyed by desegregation. Before desegregating, black business owners had guaranteed business via other black patrons. Afterwards, blacks were free to patronize other businesses when it was convenient, but racist whites at the time still refused to support black business. That ended many black businesses.

The Pruitt-Igoe complex [1] replaced many homes owned by blacks. They thought they were "helping" blacks escape the poor living conditions of their older homes. Instead, they fractured black communities and destroyed the equity they held in their own properties.

A poorly-designed welfare system throughout the 70s and 80s trapped blacks into low-income lifestyles and incentivized fathers not being present at home, which is a significant disadvantage for youths [2].

So here's where this is all going - the government needs to get the fuck out of the way and let black people succeed. We, as society, can and should intervene to stamp out racism _where it is evident_. What you can't do is look at income or incarceration statistics in a vacuum and say "clearly America is still very racist."

There is work to be done, and most people don't dispute that. What is disputed is that fighting racism with racism is an effective strategy. It isn't.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pruitt%E2%80%93Igoe

[2]: https://www.all4kids.org/news/blog/a-fathers-impact-on-child...

Re: John McWhorter: The Neoracists

#178
post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The original post never mentions the n word or social media. What are you even trying to say?

The N word is a well known example of racist speech/action and social media is often where these uses are drug up and litigated. But I don't use my identity as a white male to paint myself a victim, so maybe I'm off base? Are there other avenues where these previously non-racists were bullied into becoming racists?

That is a sentence that contains words I wouldn't dispute. I still fail to connect it to the original post in any way.

Re: John McWhorter: The Neoracists

#179

Religion has no place in the classroom, in the halls of ivy, in our codes of ethics, or in deciding how we express ourselves, and almost all of us spontaneously understand that and see any misunderstanding of the premise as backward. Yet since about 2015, a peculiar contingent has been slowly headlocking us into making an exception, supposing that this new religion is so incontestably good, so gorgeously surpassing m…

The "or in deciding how we express ourselves" is what gets me in that passage. The social contract we had was described by Voltaire in Letters on England #6 ("as there are such a multitude, they all live happy and in peace", https://www.gutenberg.org/files/2445/2445-h/2445-h.htm ). My religion should affect how I express myself; my religion should not affect how you express yourself (or vice versa).

Not directly (it can't anyway), but surely it does indirectly through your expression. That is, unless your religion leads to expressions that have no effect, or at least no effect about anyone's opinion on your religion.

You are kind of denying that there is a meta game. The fastest way to loose is not to play and you are telling people not to play.

Conversely however, the typical sectarian individualist would demand their religious feelings be respected. Answering the demand would of course affect validation. In this context I find your rule is a contradiction in terms.

I'm already playing the meta game. The claim would be much stronger if your religion should not affect how you express yourself. Would be difficult to talk about it then, and so it would fulfil your demand, except that religion would likely not be your religion.

But really, any good programm should terminate. Can we talk about hacking again?

Re: John McWhorter: The Neoracists

#180
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then, with respect, you are not listening to and understanding the people to the left of you. They deny that there is a mere undercurrent of latent intentional bigotry by those in power (racism). Rather, they affirm that America is a system of power and social relations that keep the underclass just as effectively subjugated as slavery, without the need for intentional bigotry. And they intend to undo it. George Wash…

> Then, with respect, you are not listening to and understanding the people to the left of you Yeah, no, as someone fairly far to the left on race issues, I'm going to agree that lisper is right and McWhorter is a strawman-beating hack selling the kind of pro-elite concern-trolling progressives-are-ruining-progressivism narrative that's always been a lazy but effective way to make money as a commentator in the establ…

>reverence for the founders and the conditions established at the founding, including Washington, has been integrated into a deeply racist quasi-religious civic cult model of what America means, largely in direct response to and as a tool to impede further progress on racial equality.

I think this fairly makes my point. The left-left doesn't think of a few "leftovers of racism" as much as "eternal and adaptive vigilance" against a "deeply racist quasi-religious civic cult" of American meaning that identifies with the founders.

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