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John McWhorter: The Neoracists

persuasion.community

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Re: John McWhorter: The Neoracists

#161
post #2

It is important to note that this article was written by a black man, a contributing editor to The Atlantic. John McWhorter is not a MAGA hack. That being said... This article is the very definition of a straw man. Absolutely no one subscribes to the position it critiques. On the other hand, a fair number of people (including myself) subscribe to the position that, although things are not nearly as bad as they have b…

> John McWhorter is not a MAGA hack.

From reading the piece, he seems more of a Friedman/Brooks hack (much more common in the mainstream media), but still a hack.

> This article is the very definition of a straw man. Absolutely no one subscribes to the position it critiques.

McWhorter seems to be really keen (not just in this piece) on adapting the old and problematic waves of feminism model and applying it, badly and without much basis, to “antiracism”.

> What no one has yet done is provide an actual reference to anyone going on the record to endorse the ten-point position that McWhorter calls "third-wave anti-racism."

I doubt you could find much support for people supporting any of them (except maybe #3, which is perfectly internally consistent without even superficial contradiction, and #10, in which the implication of contradiction is based entirely in the fallacy of division, like, come to think of it, much racism.)

Most of them have superficial resemblance to things people actually believe, but have been subtly twisted to make strawmen.

As one example, McWhorter’s number 2 is:

> Black people are a conglomeration of disparate individuals. “Black culture” is code for “pathological, primitive ghetto people.” But don’t expect black people to assimilate to “white” social norms because black people have a culture of their own.

An actual real thing many antiracists believe is:

> Black people are a conglomeration of disparate individuals. Reference to a singular “Black culture” is code for “pathological, primitive ghetto people.” But don’t expect black people to assimilate to “white” social norms because black people have cultures of their own.

The differences are subtle in terms of the change in words, but gigantic in terms of change of meaning.

Re: John McWhorter: The Neoracists

#162

Religion has no place in the classroom, in the halls of ivy, in our codes of ethics, or in deciding how we express ourselves, and almost all of us spontaneously understand that and see any misunderstanding of the premise as backward. Yet since about 2015, a peculiar contingent has been slowly headlocking us into making an exception, supposing that this new religion is so incontestably good, so gorgeously surpassing m…

>It’s continually amusing to me that some of the most outwardly “anti-religious” people (I’m reminded of this Silicon Valley scene [1]) adopt belief systems and act in ways that are nearly indistinguishable from American Protestantism,

This is an empty statement. You accuse him of somehow behaving similar to "protestants" with zero further description of why or how this is true.

Lot's of disparate intellectual movements share many ideas, it doesn't make them any better or worse or have any bearing on their value at all.

Re: John McWhorter: The Neoracists

#163
post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You’d deny there are a significant number of people who believe three, for example? "Silence about racism is violence." Yes, I am highly skeptical that a significant number of people profess to believe this. It sounds like clear hyperbole to me.

The slogan "Silence is violence" was all over 2020. We must move in different circles.

Just because a slogan is "all over" doesn't mean that people actually believe in its literal meaning. It's kind of like the difference between "black lives matter" and "all lives matter". The literal meaning of both of these slogans is clearly true and so on their face they are not at odds with each other. But there is a sub-text to both slogans that pits them against each other.

Likewise, "Silence is violence" doesn't literally mean what it says. What the people who recite it actually mean, I suspect, is that if you do not actively speak out against racism then you are complicit in it, which is a not-entirely-unreasonable position.

But McWhorter was not talking about the slogan. His wording presents it as a literal truth.

Re: John McWhorter: The Neoracists

#164
post #151
post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I return your claim of an infamous intellectual fallacy with another. The 'Motte-and_bailey'. IE. A large sub-section of the community advances this exact strawman, while retreating to a conventionally accepted meaning of racism when truly challenged. I'll address the biggest names that have risen during this new movement. Kendi's and DiAngelo's books are written exactly as McWhorter puts it. Coates's is more heartfe…

> Aren't you strawmanning John now? Probably. I have a hard time remaining completely dispassionate about this.

I know that expectations are different between 1st and 3rd world nations. But, here goes nothing.

Back home in India, people frequently die on the streets and 50% of the children are malnourished. It is odd to see Americans get passionate to the point refusing to engage with the opposition on issues. Especially when the problems do not seem as major when put in perspective with the problems facing 3rd world nationals.

I live in an international community house and the difference between European and American progressives is quite stark. The Europeans are economically quite left and socially progressive, but cannot empathize with the American culture war at all. Macron and Le Pen voters can enjoy a drink together. This new anti-racism movement specifically stumps most of us non-Americans, many of whom are minorities and from ultra-liberal communities ourselves.

Engaging sincerely with someone in opposition reveals an incredibly amount of nuance that most difficult issues have. Prescriptive politics of coercion is often brought down by blind spots that could have been avoided had they only been less pigheaded about it.

Re: John McWhorter: The Neoracists

#165
post #59
post #2

It is important to note that this article was written by a black man, a contributing editor to The Atlantic. John McWhorter is not a MAGA hack. That being said... This article is the very definition of a straw man. Absolutely no one subscribes to the position it critiques. On the other hand, a fair number of people (including myself) subscribe to the position that, although things are not nearly as bad as they have b…

Then, with respect, you are not listening to and understanding the people to the left of you. They deny that there is a mere undercurrent of latent intentional bigotry by those in power (racism). Rather, they affirm that America is a system of power and social relations that keep the underclass just as effectively subjugated as slavery, without the need for intentional bigotry. And they intend to undo it. George Wash…

> Then, with respect, you are not listening to and understanding the people to the left of you

Yeah, no, as someone fairly far to the left on race issues, I'm going to agree that lisper is right and McWhorter is a strawman-beating hack selling the kind of pro-elite concern-trolling progressives-are-ruining-progressivism narrative that's always been a lazy but effective way to make money as a commentator in the establishment media.

> George Washington is not being removed from school names because there is a tail problem with bigotry that we’ve made progress on

Yes, he is.

> They believe they must deny Washington any place of honor, so that BIPOC children feel safe enough to succeed.

These aren't different things. The reason why honoring Washington ha become seen as a barrier to further progress and an impediment to feelings of safety is precisely because of the manner in which reverence for the founders and the conditions established at the founding, including Washington, has been integrated into a deeply racist quasi-religious civic cult model of what America means, largely in direct response to and as a tool to impede further progress on racial equality.

EDIT: Personally, I like the kind of positive adaptive syncretism represented by things like Hamilton better than destructive iconoclasm as a response to this, but that doesn't stop me from understanding where it comes from.

> But it is not a straw man to point out the false religion of the iconoclasts claiming to have a solution.

It is when both the religion and the claim to have a solution is something you've just completely invented out of whole cloth.

The modern antiracist movement, like the antifascist movement, and like Jeffersonian antityranny denies (or at least, does not hold out for) a solution, but instead posits that the problem it addresses can only, at least as best as we can tell right now, be held in check by eternal, and adaptive, vigilance.

Re: John McWhorter: The Neoracists

#166

The angle nobody ever mentions on this issue is that nothing mass-produces racism and extremist political views more than treating an entire generation of young men as though they are automatically racist, regardless of their actions, or lack of action. Most people under 40 right now were raised to be completely ready to forget about race and treat it like a non-issue. In response, a lot of well-intentioned and non-b…

I can really relate to this.

20 year old me could not have cared less about race except to protest against some elements of our society that I viewed as structurally racist(prison reform, drug and sentencing laws, police reform and accountability). I would have strongly outwardly identified as anti racist at that time.

And I still think of myself as anti racist internally but when I see someone else outwardly promoting anti racism my first thought is that I should stay away from them for risk of getting wrapped up in toxic behavior, not that they are my ideological ally. I definitely intentionally seek not to be viewed as being related or sympathetic to public anti racist movements in the current era.

At this point my views on race are that the concept if it is brought up at all is probably going to be used as a club to beat me with(metaphorically) and that anyone wielding it isn't my friend.

McWhoter is hero IMO for willingly taking on all of the social consequences of stating these view points to advocate for what he thinks is right.

Re: John McWhorter: The Neoracists

#167

The angle nobody ever mentions on this issue is that nothing mass-produces racism and extremist political views more than treating an entire generation of young men as though they are automatically racist, regardless of their actions, or lack of action. Most people under 40 right now were raised to be completely ready to forget about race and treat it like a non-issue. In response, a lot of well-intentioned and non-b…

They don't mention it because it's not true and an obvious rationalization for already existing behavior. Sorry but throwing the N word around and casual racism existed before social media. The "I'm not the racist you are" is childish and unfortunately par for the course in online discourse now.

The original post never mentions the n word or social media. What are you even trying to say?

Re: John McWhorter: The Neoracists

#168

I'd recommend reading Ibram X. Kendi's counter to another piece by McWorther which demonstrates similar straw man rhetoric (pointed out by lisper) as this piece: agglomerating disparate positions from hundreds of people and pointing to a lack of internal consistency in such disparate points of view. Well yeah, if you assemble myriad opinions about racism in society in a long list, many of them won't be coherent. It's…

When many of those myriad opinions are attacks on others but simultaneously attack people on opposite sides of an argument in a way to make you damned if you do, damned if you don't (exactly the way he points out in many cases in the article) then don't be surprised when people point out the bullshit of it being inconsistent.

Re: John McWhorter: The Neoracists

#169

he refutes gentrification by describing what gentrification is. It specifically is about the generous amounts of money that drive up general cost, gentrification doesnt occur when its broke/non influential white people, its just a white person that lives in the neighbor hood, gentrification isnt even about race.

Gentrification's indo-european word root derives cognates in indo-aryan e.g. that literally mean "race" (janas) [1]. Incidently, India, Iran, and everyone else has staggering amounts of institutional racism and other kinds of discrimination. You might think that it hardly matters.

However, gens in the Roman republic concerned nobility of certain families, often only in name and different degrees. So it is not the 20th century black and white kind of racism, but something a little more particular, what is very much related to oligarchic nepotism, land ownership rights, and yes, nationalism and racism.

The irony of the matter is that gentrification in its current public image concerns people being priced out of the inner cities where their families have been living for gen-erations.

On the other hand, besides pricing, it might implicate discriminatory practices for who's being given a room, and a job, a place to study, who creates the jobs, and who gets the chance to raise a kid without toiling away as a wage slave on no income after rent.

Gosh, that's only the word's root and I'm not even totally sure about that one. Genious and gene (drift) are related as well, but I typically like to compare rhymes which on the face of it are unrelated, like centri, because it's entertaining to speculate how they could be related. See, old classical Latin had no G but used C (or Cu, whence the practice of transcribing hard G as Gu in French, e.g. Guernica); Greek and everyone else had /g/ in the alphabet where Latin has C and I have it from a good source that place value was rather more structly observed than one would think, at least since Egyptian. Classical Syriac (Aramaic) has qentron, qantron(?), which is thought to be a related loan, and the q (ܩ 'qoph') does imply to this Semitic novice a sound quite different from /k/.

Centrum is commonly thought to be a loan from Greek, and kentrom would typically reconstruct a voiceless palatal velar, whereas gen- reconstructs a voiced palatal, thus AGr. genos and kentrom cannot be cognate in the traditional theory under the assumption that both words are inherited. The assumption is myopic though, because Ancient Greek is known to have a lot of external influence and kentron itself has too few cognates to establish heritage with any amount of significant probability. It may therefore be an open question, if it was a loan word, where it came from. Although the question would appear fatuous if the semantic distance is easy to bridge that first looks implausible from AGr. "spike" to Lat. "middle" but looks more plausible if cast as "pointed tool" and "middle (of a circle" (eg. via maths, if you can imagine it). It is all the more ridiculous to go so far before "gentrification" was coined--rather recently, I presume. Yet it makes sense to contrast gentry with the peasents, and pitch fork with the ruling stem or tribe. On a rather theoretical level it is at the very least not implausible to hask for each of the roots individual internal derivation, but I'll spare you the rest which invariable devolves into world-conspiracy theory at the latest when Semitic is involved, much worse in fact when racisim was the topic, while I'm sure a more trivial argument can explain why "something with a sharp point" had to be borrowed into languages so diverse as Latin, Aramaic, Georgian, Armenian, whereas my information basis is too poor and thus biased to see ghosts in the noise, such a trade marked compass needle cartell.

Nevertheless I hope you (and Maybe McWorther if he should read this thread with interest) can appreciate the ironic saecasm that, if I was into something, then gentrification would in effect protest the centrification of the city centre. That's literally circular reasoning.

The idea that city centres are Haram (forbidden, holy, thus also Harem) is quite old actually. I think that's what we are looking at in the abstract, although in the conclusion it seems more like the industrialisation and beaurocratization of the home stead. It is a self similar problem, because it may lead to urbanization of the outer rim, and thus the gentrification of villages, which I have experienced in my own time, though to a profitable effect so far. The flip side is desertification and geront- (oficitation?) of rural areas, "Landflucht", when the youth looking for work flees to the city. Migration is topical on a global scale of course, and racism plays a huge role in that topic no doubt, be it in Texas, the Mediteranean, China, or Dubai (where the term "wage slavery" is no hyperbole, and nepotism the name of the game, I suppose), the list goes on and on. So you have to consider aglomeration between world cities, too, which is what I mean with self similarity.

In result it--whatever it really is--is a problem so complex I cannot disagree about racism not being the root cause, despite the copious evidence in the word root itself.

But I do disagree that it is about money, which is only symbolic and begets the question what it symbolized, if not the head figures depicted on the obverse. I do think cost is a more relevant term (a homophone and either way not totally secure; rhymes with caste if you mumble, and with κεστός "girdle, belt; stitched, embroidery" which is a cognate to kentron, haha, I could go on all day).

[1]: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-Eur...

Re: John McWhorter: The Neoracists

#170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> adopt belief systems and act in ways that are nearly indistinguishable from American Protestantism, with the minor difference of the content of beliefs being different Look, as an American Catholic it's not unusual for me to encounter people who drastically stereotype Protestants, but literally the only thing that unites the quite diverse group encompassed by the term “American Protestantism” is the content of thei…

I wasn’t intending to stereotype Protestants at all. But I think it’s not a controversial thing to say that American Protestantism in particular has some very unique aspects, especially in comparison to say, German Protestantism. Just off the top of my head, Puritanism, Prosperity theology, and Mormonism all strike me as very American phenomena. If you look at them from a certain angle, the first two have nearly iden…

> Just off the top of my head, Puritanism, Prosperity theology, and Mormonism all strike me as very American phenomena.

Puritanism obviously isn't particularly American (nor is it a thing anymore in any coherent, nonmetaphorical sense), Prosperity theology isn't broadly characteristic of American Protestantism (though, yes, it's origin is within American Protestantism and it is more common within American Protestantism than elsewhere; OTOH, many of it's fiercest opponents are also within American Protestantism)—and, moreover, it's a component of a belief system, not something that could be shared with another group outside of the content of beliefs—and Mormonism isn't a subset of Protestantism, or, at least by the shared definition used by Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant Christianity, even strictly Christian (religion doesn't use cladistic taxonomy, which you can tell by the fact we don't refer to all Abrahamic monotheists as “Jewish”.)

EDIT: To tie this back and summarize my objection to the description, “American Protestantism” is a broad, diverse group united only by a small subset of the content of their religious beliefs, so saying that some other group ends up creating something that looks just like American Protestantism except for the content of belief is using lots of individually meaningful words to concoct a description that says nothing at all.

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