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The largest study to date on the genetic basis of sexuality (2019)

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Re: The largest study to date on the genetic basis of sexuality (2019)

#401

Post by Zardoz84 »

dragonwriter wrote: post #370
suizi wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it is entirely genetic. There are other factors like development within the mother's body, levels of hormones / chemicals, and so on which could contribute to a different sexuality later on. This doesn't mean you can change it, and messing with chemical levels in the hope of finding a configuration which leads to "normality" would be very unethical in my eyes.

> There are other factors like development within the mother's body, levels of hormones / chemicals, and so on which could contribute to a different sexuality later on. Those could still be influences if it was purely genetic. Biological sex is approximately fully genetic (not quite, but very close to it), but womb environment (I remember pH differences specifically being identified as an influence) play a role in wh…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crocodile#Reproduction

On many complex species, the genere isn't defined by the genes.

Re: The largest study to date on the genetic basis of sexuality (2019)

#402

Post by Zardoz84 »

throwanem wrote: post #188
bostonsre wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People shouldn't be oppressed for their sexuality full stop, regardless of reason. Completely agreed. I don't think we should shy away from trying to understand and explain it though. It's been a puzzling question that people have tried to grapple with for a long time now. I think it would be interesting to understand humans better. And.. if it is definitively proven that it is nature and not nurture, it might make…

If people changed their minds in the face of the science, we'd have been putting real work into decarbonization since 10 years ago at least.

Or people wouldn't elect well know corrupt politicians...

Re: The largest study to date on the genetic basis of sexuality (2019)

#403

Post by wutbrodo »

Zardoz84 wrote: post #392
hypertele-Xii wrote: post #272

Fascinating! To me this sounds like the mother's body is trying to "nudge" the odds towards a daughter after several sons, but sometimes the process "fails" and produces an effeminate male instead - a gay son. Alternatively, some kind of meta-level mechanism to reduce competition over women in the community, ultimately improving its collective health and well-being.

> Fascinating! To me this sounds like the mother's body is trying to "nudge" the odds towards a daughter after several sons, but sometimes the process "fails" and produces an effeminate male instead - a gay son. You know that a homosexual not are "effeminate males" ? Man, try to revise these stereotype that you have.

I'm not sure the parent comment meant effeminate in demeanor. There is some indication that the brains of homosexual men have some similarities to female brains[1]. The GP's speculation doesn't need to rely on "stereotypes" to describe the homosexual male brain as closer to (heterosexual) female than the heterosexual male brain.

[1] https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/study-says-brains...

Re: The largest study to date on the genetic basis of sexuality (2019)

#404

Post by Neeek »

arp242 wrote: post #364
jdgoesmarching wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This thread seems very insistent on pushing the environmental case when presented with evidence to the contrary. It’s like I stumbled into a Republican convention in the 90s. Baseless theories: people do this to feel better about LGBT discrimination or the idea of sexuality being out of our control is too scary for dudes who haven’t come to terms with their own masculinity. The latter isn’t necessarily shade, I’m not…

You can believe that homosexuality is at least partly environmental while also believing that people should have the freedom to be as gay as they want to be. I don't really like these appeals to motive; this is quite an interesting empirical question that's disconnected from discrimination. Even if it would turn out that homosexuality is a choice (I don't think it is, but let's assume it would be) then this wouldn't…

I'm a little confused, you seem to be using choice and environment like they are synonymous here. It's a small nitpick but, even if this is environmental or epigenetic it doesn't necessarily mean that people get to choose the environment they exist in, at least in their formative years.

Re: The largest study to date on the genetic basis of sexuality (2019)

#405

Post by damnyou »

rayiner wrote: post #320
aphyr wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a gay person who periodically wades past the dialectical peat bog that is Hacker News, I am begging you to stop digging. I cannot tell you how disheartening it is to find comments like this at the top of a thread, let alone anywhere . Perceived mutability is one aspect that affects perceptions of marginalized groups. Neither perceived nor actual mutability justifies discrimination. A world in which gender transiti…

Nobody here is saying that discrimination isn't wrong. But why that discrimination is wrong matters. In the west, you can appeal to notions of individual self-determination: "We shouldn't care about peoples' consenting sexual conduct." Those rationales have little meaning in Asian or African societies. That's why the fact that sexual orientation is not a choice people make one day, but is instead something they are b…

Liberal gender and sexual norms are very clearly better for humanity and it is a moral imperative that the rest of the world adopt them. Social conservatism of the sort practiced in most of the world, including but not remotely limited to the Muslim world, is incompatible with basic human rights and freedoms. To be very clear: social conservatism is bad and social liberalism is good.

As someone not from the west, I hold these beliefs very firmly. The abuse and oppression I saw growing up was the inevitable result of patriarchal culture. Traditional gender and sexual norms are not worth saving. I hope some day they're seen in the same light we see feudalism or chattel slavery today.

So, yes, in that sense "born that way" is a compromise with bigots.

Re: The largest study to date on the genetic basis of sexuality (2019)

#406

Post by KozmoNau7 »

irrational wrote: post #385
tomc1985 wrote: post #382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Curious as to whether we'd see a lot of effeminate straight men if social norms permitted it. My guess is yes

Definitely. I'm straight and I love watching Jane Austen, Anne of Green Gables, Musicals, Hallmark, Downton Abbey, Romcom, etc. movies with my wife. But I'd never let any of my male friends know.

Why wouldn't you let them know?

One would think that standing by your choices and not trying to hide then away, would be the assertive and self-confident approach. If your friends are really so fickle as to think less of you based on the TV shows you watch and the love you show for your wife, are they really worth keeping around?

Re: The largest study to date on the genetic basis of sexuality (2019)

#407

Post by simonh »

hypertele-Xii wrote: post #272

Fascinating! To me this sounds like the mother's body is trying to "nudge" the odds towards a daughter after several sons, but sometimes the process "fails" and produces an effeminate male instead - a gay son. Alternatively, some kind of meta-level mechanism to reduce competition over women in the community, ultimately improving its collective health and well-being.

The only way to 'nudge' the chances of a girl baby is to select the sperm based on which sex genes they carry. Any hormonal or such changes induced in the fetus down the line is too late to have any effect on genetic gender.

Re: The largest study to date on the genetic basis of sexuality (2019)

#408

Post by mmmrtl »

godmode2019 wrote: post #379

Everyone is looking for a environmental factors this could be one. Sexual Assault Risks among Gay and Bisexual Men - NCBI - NIH "One half of men (50.8%) reported childhood sexual assault" https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4117833 Similar: https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/3949087/Abused-more-likely-to... Here is the speculation part: the more older brothers one has the older they will be from you and entering…

Seems more likely that the causality is in the opposite direction

Re: The largest study to date on the genetic basis of sexuality (2019)

#409

Post by BlackFly »

rayiner wrote: post #320
aphyr wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a gay person who periodically wades past the dialectical peat bog that is Hacker News, I am begging you to stop digging. I cannot tell you how disheartening it is to find comments like this at the top of a thread, let alone anywhere . Perceived mutability is one aspect that affects perceptions of marginalized groups. Neither perceived nor actual mutability justifies discrimination. A world in which gender transiti…

Nobody here is saying that discrimination isn't wrong. But why that discrimination is wrong matters. In the west, you can appeal to notions of individual self-determination: "We shouldn't care about peoples' consenting sexual conduct." Those rationales have little meaning in Asian or African societies. That's why the fact that sexual orientation is not a choice people make one day, but is instead something they are b…

> I’m from a Muslim country that does not accept western notions of individualism or sexual permissiveness.

There is no such Western notion of individualism or sexual permissiveness. The sexual mores of Roman Catholics in South America are very different than the sexual mores of Roman Catholics in Italy and very different from some polygamous Mormon enclaves in the US. The "West" once uniformly banned homosexuality and has been very inconsistent in slowly coming to tolerate it, and such tolerance has certainly also grown in the "East" in a similar slow and inconsistent fashion.

What there is, in many countries, is a notion of the necessity of secularism in law and government. Brought about precisely because religions cannot agree about basic fundamental points of morality and they have been all too willing to fight each other over it throughout history. In order for the various religious sects to stop fighting one another, it was agreed in many nations that the law shouldn't play favorites with a given religions view of morality.

This separation of church and state is indeed found far and wide and certainly goes beyond the "West". The underlying principle, that you cannot get people even in a single nation to agree upon what otherwise harmless things are taboo, ultimately leads to other protections for self expression and in this case homosexuality.

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