The largest study to date on the genetic basis of sexuality (2019) • Hacker News Board

Re: The largest study to date on the genetic basis of sexuality (2019)

#381

Post by kepler1 » Tue, Feb 09, 2021, 5:35 AM UTC

jabberwcky wrote: post #331

hypertele-Xii wrote: post #272

Fascinating! To me this sounds like the mother's body is trying to "nudge" the odds towards a daughter after several sons, but sometimes the process "fails" and produces an effeminate male instead - a gay son. Alternatively, some kind of meta-level mechanism to reduce competition over women in the community, ultimately improving its collective health and well-being.

> effeminate male > gay son This is a dangerous stereotype that is equally harmful to people of any sexuality, I'd encourage you to correct it. Most of the gay folk I know personally tend towards the athletic end of the spectrum

You're really swinging to the opposite end of credibility, bending over backwards to put on blinders and assert that gayness has absolutely no relation to some effeminate qualities. It goes against people's own ability to observe facts and undermines your position. Maybe it's not true for every gay male, but it is certainly an observable phenomenon.

Re: The largest study to date on the genetic basis of sexuality (2019)

#382

Post by tomc1985 » Tue, Feb 09, 2021, 5:46 AM UTC

kepler1 wrote: post #381

jabberwcky wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> effeminate male > gay son This is a dangerous stereotype that is equally harmful to people of any sexuality, I'd encourage you to correct it. Most of the gay folk I know personally tend towards the athletic end of the spectrum

You're really swinging to the opposite end of credibility, bending over backwards to put on blinders and assert that gayness has absolutely no relation to some effeminate qualities. It goes against people's own ability to observe facts and undermines your position. Maybe it's not true for every gay male, but it is certainly an observable phenomenon.

Curious as to whether we'd see a lot of effeminate straight men if social norms permitted it. My guess is yes

Re: The largest study to date on the genetic basis of sexuality (2019)

#383

Post by mehwoot » Tue, Feb 09, 2021, 5:48 AM UTC

jdgoesmarching wrote: post #309

drocer88 wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the link: "Research from the 1990s2 showed that identical twins are more likely to share a sexual orientation than are fraternal twins or adopted siblings." Study here : https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9549243/ "We present an overview of behavioral genetics research on homosexual and heterosexual orientation. Family, twin, and adoptee studies indicate that homosexuality and thus heterosexuality run in families.…

This thread seems very insistent on pushing the environmental case when presented with evidence to the contrary. It’s like I stumbled into a Republican convention in the 90s. Baseless theories: people do this to feel better about LGBT discrimination or the idea of sexuality being out of our control is too scary for dudes who haven’t come to terms with their own masculinity. The latter isn’t necessarily shade, I’m not…

"environmental" doesn't mean it's a choice or that it can be effectively changed. For example environmental factors during pregnancy could have influence, but once someone is born it could be mostly determined. That would be entirely consistent with sexuality being somewhat genetic, mostly environmental, but unable to be changed after birth.

Re: The largest study to date on the genetic basis of sexuality (2019)

#384

Post by hn_throwaway_99 » Tue, Feb 09, 2021, 6:03 AM UTC

jdgoesmarching wrote: post #309

drocer88 wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the link: "Research from the 1990s2 showed that identical twins are more likely to share a sexual orientation than are fraternal twins or adopted siblings." Study here : https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9549243/ "We present an overview of behavioral genetics research on homosexual and heterosexual orientation. Family, twin, and adoptee studies indicate that homosexuality and thus heterosexuality run in families.…

This thread seems very insistent on pushing the environmental case when presented with evidence to the contrary. It’s like I stumbled into a Republican convention in the 90s. Baseless theories: people do this to feel better about LGBT discrimination or the idea of sexuality being out of our control is too scary for dudes who haven’t come to terms with their own masculinity. The latter isn’t necessarily shade, I’m not…

To be honest, as a gay man, I find the opposite is often true: that somehow insisting on homosexuality being genetically preordained is needed in order to argue against sexual-orientation-based discrimination. That is, if it is an inborn trait then gay people shouldn't be discriminated against because they "can't help it".

I've always found that somewhat offensive, because it somehow takes the sub/unconscious opinion that being gay is defective: "You wouldn't discriminate against someone with a severe birth defect, well gay people can't control it either." Fuck that. Whether it comes about from the genes, or through the environment, or most likely through some combination of the two, it is completely illogical for anyone who has ever felt sexual attraction of any kind to argue that it can "controlled", so I don't need some appeal to "it must be in my genes" to make me feel better.

Re: The largest study to date on the genetic basis of sexuality (2019)

#385

Post by irrational » Tue, Feb 09, 2021, 6:05 AM UTC

tomc1985 wrote: post #382

kepler1 wrote: post #381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're really swinging to the opposite end of credibility, bending over backwards to put on blinders and assert that gayness has absolutely no relation to some effeminate qualities. It goes against people's own ability to observe facts and undermines your position. Maybe it's not true for every gay male, but it is certainly an observable phenomenon.

Curious as to whether we'd see a lot of effeminate straight men if social norms permitted it. My guess is yes

Definitely. I'm straight and I love watching Jane Austen, Anne of Green Gables, Musicals, Hallmark, Downton Abbey, Romcom, etc. movies with my wife. But I'd never let any of my male friends know.

Re: The largest study to date on the genetic basis of sexuality (2019)

#386

Post by notmars » Tue, Feb 09, 2021, 6:06 AM UTC

And here lies the problems of finding causation not correlation:

- gay is not binary neither through time (people do evolve both way while getting old) neither through ‘space’ (some people are half/half, some people have some preference for love and others for sex, and so on)

- genes are not expressed linearly, and one slight expression in the womb can mean something big, or nothing or maybe something?

- social pressure about sexuality start early even though we may get better at avoiding some: blue for boys, pink for girls, boys do sports, blablabla and so on

- internal development and expression of sexuality does not happen at the same pace and at the same amplitude for everybody (some people really are asexual their whole life) and of course the familly, sister/brotherhood, socio-economical environment influence it too

So in these studies of sexuality and even worse, with the metastudies, I’m always left with the feeling that the hypothesis tested by it was broken from the start. What was the question they were trying to answer? « Is it biologically complicated? » Ok yes. « Do we have the tool to even make the distinction between a weak correlation due to the sample bias? » Can’t see how in this study. What am I missing?

Re: The largest study to date on the genetic basis of sexuality (2019)

#387

Post by waterhouse » Tue, Feb 09, 2021, 6:08 AM UTC

spodek wrote: post #352

jabberwcky wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> effeminate male > gay son This is a dangerous stereotype that is equally harmful to people of any sexuality, I'd encourage you to correct it. Most of the gay folk I know personally tend towards the athletic end of the spectrum

Is there some law of the internet that when someone corrects someone, they often commit the error they're pointing out? Did you mean to imply that effeminate -- showing characteristics more associated with females than males -- was at the other end of a spectrum from athletic?

> Is there some law of the internet that when someone corrects someone, they often commit the error they're pointing out?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muphry%27s_law

Re: The largest study to date on the genetic basis of sexuality (2019)

#388

Post by hn_throwaway_99 » Tue, Feb 09, 2021, 6:13 AM UTC

LatteLazy wrote: post #129

masklinn wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kin-selection hypothesis also allow for some fraction of asexual or homosexual population being a positive overall (from an evolutionary perspective).

There is good evidence that gay males are much more involved with their neices and nephews [0] and that their sisters are more fertile[1]. [0] https://www.advocate.com/news/daily-news/2010/02/05/study-su... [1] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15539346/

I've seen this hypothesized and studied before as how homosexuality exists in the face of evolution. That is, some combination of (a) without children of their own homosexuals are better able to help raise their other family members, (b) homosexuality is strongly correlated to higher fecundity of female family members, and (c) homosexuality is just a fluke in sexuality in general, similar to how other complex biological processes often have birth reflects related to some failure in each step of those processes.

While the "fertile siblings" theory and evidence make a lot of sense to me, I also find it somewhat depressing, as if being gay is just kind of a fluke byproduct to help your other family members.

Re: The largest study to date on the genetic basis of sexuality (2019)

#389

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Feb 09, 2021, 6:13 AM UTC

kepler1 wrote: post #381

jabberwcky wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> effeminate male > gay son This is a dangerous stereotype that is equally harmful to people of any sexuality, I'd encourage you to correct it. Most of the gay folk I know personally tend towards the athletic end of the spectrum

You're really swinging to the opposite end of credibility, bending over backwards to put on blinders and assert that gayness has absolutely no relation to some effeminate qualities. It goes against people's own ability to observe facts and undermines your position. Maybe it's not true for every gay male, but it is certainly an observable phenomenon.

[deleted]

Re: The largest study to date on the genetic basis of sexuality (2019)

#390

Post by Zardoz84 » Tue, Feb 09, 2021, 6:25 AM UTC

notmars wrote: post #386

And here lies the problems of finding causation not correlation: - gay is not binary neither through time (people do evolve both way while getting old) neither through ‘space’ (some people are half/half, some people have some preference for love and others for sex, and so on) - genes are not expressed linearly, and one slight expression in the womb can mean something big, or nothing or maybe something? - social press…

> - internal development and expression of sexuality does not happen at the same pace and at the same amplitude for everybody (some people really are asexual their whole life) and of course the familly, sister/brotherhood, socio-economical environment influence it too

Some people IS asexual. Asexuality it's a valid sexual orientation like being bi/pan/homo or heterosexual. It isn't lack of sexual development or sexual expression or result of family, socio-economical environment influences.

Perhaps, you should inform about it better : https://www.asexuality.org/?q=overview.html