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NYT reporter falsely accuses tech investor of using a slur

greenwald.substack.com

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Re: NYT reporter falsely accuses tech investor of using a slur

#281
post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think I disagree with the statement that misinformation causes real and demonstrable harm. The vast majority of misinformation does not. Saying that we faked the moon landing, or that the sky is a layer of impenetrable foil, while silly, is ultimately inconsequential and does not cause harm. There are of course rare cases when someone acts on misinformation to do something harmful. I can easily think of several exa…

I appreciate your reasoned response. But the misinformation that we tend to focus on isn't "we faked the moon landing" or "the sky is a layer of impenetrable foil." It's anti-muslim riots in Sri Lanka[1] or the fact that a large percentage of the US electorate believes that the 2020 election was fraudulent. These are clearly cases of "real and demonstrable harm," even if you believe that other things also sometimes c…

> I also wanted to point out that there's a technical term for true information that causes harm, "malinformation."

Wow, that is such an Orwellian thing to say.

The definition you just gave could be used to justify censorship of any truthful information.

Yes, this factual information is upsetting, but we need to let Facebook cover our eyes and decide how outraged we are allowed to be. Otherwise we might hurt ourselves or others.

I can appreciate that factual information could be presented in a dishonest way, but if it is so misleading, how is it not just misinformation?

Malinformation as a concept is specifically that truthful information can be problematic and we need to be "protected" from it. If the truth is upsetting, then try to solve the problem, not people talking about it.

---

Then again, perhaps good malinformation policies could have averted rioting last summer, and we could have censored the initial George Floyd video that made it look like Floyd was murdered by a cop. The police later released evidence that Floyd had overdosed on fentanyl and most likely died of natural causes. So, if our friends in big tech had simply censored things until the full facts came out and we could see context, it would have been more orderly and harmonious.

Isn't preventing rioting and civil unrest one of their goals? Too bad we couldn't have blunted the outrage.

Re: NYT reporter falsely accuses tech investor of using a slur

#282

> "But this is now the prevailing ethos in corporate journalism. They have insufficient talent or skill, and even less desire, to take on real power centers: the military-industrial complex, the CIA and FBI, the clandestine security state, Wall Street, Silicon Valley monopolies, the corrupted and lying corporate media outlets they serve. So settling on this penny-ante, trivial bullshit — tattling, hall monitoring, sp…

Very ironic that this sentence was planted in the middle of a 3000-word screed comparing someone who tweeted a misheard quote to the Stasi.

You probably are nuanced enough to differentiate between direct apples to apples comparisons and hyperbole.

Or did you think the soup nazi was exterminating jews between serving cups of jambalaya?

Re: NYT reporter falsely accuses tech investor of using a slur

#283
post #171
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I used to be a free speech absolutist myself back in Snowden times FWIW, there is no reason you shouldn't still be a Free Speech absolutist (I still am) so long as you don't fall for the disinformation that Free Speech means freedom from social consequences. When individuals or other fully private entities decide they don't like someone's speech and choose to not associate or support that person/entity any longer,…

Greenwald's argument is that the repercussions being discussed are not the result of genuine freedom of association. He thinks that there exists a powerful ideological movement in the media that is using its power to get people fired (or banned but at least punished) for reasons that are 1. unreasonable 2. have nothing to do with anything the general public cares about. You seem to not understand (or not care) about…

So let's get down to brass tacks here: do you want to have people shot for thoughts you don't like? Because that's what it means to make something illegal. That's what's ultimately at the root of "law", cold hard power. It can have more or fewer layers of padding around the hard fist, but the fist is always there at the end. Freedom of Speech is about not having hard power directly or indirectly control speech in general unless there is an extreme overriding need and the use is as limited and transient as possible. How the people choose to exercise their speech is up to the private sphere, which can shift and reconsider over time. Because there is nothing better. There is no oracle we can consult. And when force comes into the equation, it's always ended up getting abused. Like democracy itself, "the worst system, except for all the others".

>Greenwald's argument is that the repercussions being discussed are not the result of genuine freedom of association.

Which is complete bullshit unless someone is getting forced. There is nothing "ungenuine" about it, he just doesn't like their choice. Which is his right, but denying their agency is him being an asshole anyway.

>He thinks that there exists a powerful ideological movement in the media that is using its power to get people fired (or banned but at least punished) for reasons that are 1. unreasonable 2. have nothing to do with anything the general public cares about.

Hah, "the general public doesn't care" and yet somehow all the social repercussions depend entirely on the general public caring. How very convenient! And we're supposed to what, just accept Greenwald's definition of what's "unreasonable"? Who made him king?

>You seem to not understand (or not care) about that latter point and, as a result, I find your worldview shockingly amoral.

And you seem to not understand (or not care) about people's rights to speak and associate as they please so long as it's not defamatory, as well as denial of agency. Which I find amoral, though sadly I cannot honestly say it's at all "shocking". Your view is well represented throughout human history I'm afraid.

>To you, apparently the whole point of discourse is to destroy your ideological opponent in whatever ways are available. The only restrictions are legal.

See, this is literally the opposite of everything I've said! The restrictions aren't legal, I've direct argued against legal restrictions! The restrictions are social, and speech.

>You might decline a dinner invitation over something like that but not e-mail the offender's boss.

Why shouldn't you email the offender's boss? I wouldn't over something like this, but there is perfectly legal speech (like glorifying slavery) that I would consider serious enough to potentially complain about. And what of the BOSS'S agency? Working at a higher level college tech position, for a medium business, a political campaign, and even front desk way way back in the day, I can remember plenty of crackpot messages that came in to me or others. We'd have a good laugh at the sillier ones and chuck 'em. If we just went along with them all that'd be on us, not the nuts who wrote in.

Fortunately, because we have Freedom of Speech, you and I can in turn be upset over a company going overboard, or someone going after someone in ways we don't approve of. We too can email, expressing support for the person who said "retard", and trying to convince others, and threatening whatever social (including economic) consequences we can muster! And at no point will any of us be shot for it, or have to ask government permission.

>"Social repercussions" is doing a lot of work here. Is it just a coincidence that the "social repercussions" under discussion so often involve the targeted parties being less able to express their views?

"Less able to express their views" is doing a lot of work here. Are you asserting that you have a right to take someone else's money or property for your own speech against their will? That they must like you and chat with you or work with you or invite you along to social gatherings or the like no matter what you say? And how would that not be restricting their freedom of speech? I'd call that pretty creepy.

>Also, your creepy use of "social repercussions" is certainly not any part of any defense of Free Speech I've ever heard.

You need to get out of your bubble and read some history if you've never so much as heard phrases like "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" before. Both parts of that are important.

Re: NYT reporter falsely accuses tech investor of using a slur

#284
post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's also the question of why employers think that caving to Twitter outrage is good or necessary for business.

I think that's obvious: because such outrage is infectious and is liable to spread from employee to employer.

Except that the general public seems to care much less about the outrage than these businesses do. They're behaving like socially insecure teenagers, trying to prove to the bullies that they're cool. My theory is that it's an extension of the problems of online advertising--companies know there's a lot of money at stake, but still aren't good at measuring it.

Re: NYT reporter falsely accuses tech investor of using a slur

#285
post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You don't use a loaded phrase like "Stasi-like" unless you're implying something nefarious. To be perfectly clear, he was using it to refer to citizen-surveillance which is patently nefarious . > Greenwald is ascribing a lot of intent that he can't back up. Those of us who suffered her social media account while it was public have the context to know that his characterization isn't far off. More importantly though,…

She had a Clubhouse invite and reported on what (she thought) she heard. That's not surveillance any more than watching TV is surveillance. Would Greenwald appreciate his methods being referred to as KGB-like espionage? Because working a source to reveal classified material is how they would do it. And it's seriously rich of him to accuse another journalist of pursuing an agenda.

I think you misunderstand what citizen surveillance refers to. It’s not literal espionage.

Re: NYT reporter falsely accuses tech investor of using a slur

#286
post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I appreciate your reasoned response. But the misinformation that we tend to focus on isn't "we faked the moon landing" or "the sky is a layer of impenetrable foil." It's anti-muslim riots in Sri Lanka[1] or the fact that a large percentage of the US electorate believes that the 2020 election was fraudulent. These are clearly cases of "real and demonstrable harm," even if you believe that other things also sometimes c…

> I also wanted to point out that there's a technical term for true information that causes harm, "malinformation." Wow, that is such an Orwellian thing to say. The definition you just gave could be used to justify censorship of any truthful information. Yes, this factual information is upsetting, but we need to let Facebook cover our eyes and decide how outraged we are allowed to be. Otherwise we might hurt ourselve…

> Malinformation as a concept is specifically that truthful information can be problematic and we need to be "protected" from it.

I don't see that the second half of that is inherent to the concept of "malinformation". There are situations where unabashed, unfiltered truth can be damaging or problematic. Defining that concept with a term is not in any way attempting to solve that concept. It doesn't presume that something has to be "done" about malinformation, but it can provide additional perspective on ways that misinformation can spread.

Re: NYT reporter falsely accuses tech investor of using a slur

#287
post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I appreciate your reasoned response. But the misinformation that we tend to focus on isn't "we faked the moon landing" or "the sky is a layer of impenetrable foil." It's anti-muslim riots in Sri Lanka[1] or the fact that a large percentage of the US electorate believes that the 2020 election was fraudulent. These are clearly cases of "real and demonstrable harm," even if you believe that other things also sometimes c…

> I also wanted to point out that there's a technical term for true information that causes harm, "malinformation." Wow, that is such an Orwellian thing to say. The definition you just gave could be used to justify censorship of any truthful information. Yes, this factual information is upsetting, but we need to let Facebook cover our eyes and decide how outraged we are allowed to be. Otherwise we might hurt ourselve…

> The definition you just gave could be used to justify censorship of any truthful information.

Do you not agree that truthful information can sometimes cause harm? What if I, say, reveal the identities of all CIA agents operating in China?

> I can appreciate that factual information could be presented in a dishonest way, but if it is so misleading, how is it not just misinformation?

Misinformation and malinformation are two different terms that mean different things: misinformation is never true, and malinformation is always true.

If you read my posts, I've been pretty careful to say that I don't necessarily have all the answers to the way different types of information spread across the internet. I just wanted to give some more context to the way researchers discuss these subjects.

> The police later released evidence that Floyd had overdosed on fentanyl and most likely died of natural causes

I hadn't heard this before, and don't really want to wade into it, but I'll just leave this here: https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/sep/25/blog-posti...

Re: NYT reporter falsely accuses tech investor of using a slur

#288
post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know these things are allowed to be something other than all or nothing, right? You can hold the stance that WSB fiasco is idiotic scaremongering while also acknowledging that there are other internet mobs that do real harm. Because when it comes to WSB I completely agree with you.

> You can hold the stance that WSB fiasco is idiotic scaremongering while also acknowledging that there are other internet mobs that do real harm. You mean like that group that has torched neighborhoods, shot polive officers, shot other protesters, thrown rocks, use baseball bats on police and civilians etc etc? Or do you mean the really really scary ones like the ones that walked into Capitol Hill and had four lunat…

That's the most hilariously disingenuous take on what happened at the Capitol that I've read so far, so points for that.

Nearly 95% of all protests this summer were non-violent, and 80% of all protests were linked to BLM: https://acleddata.com/2020/09/03/demonstrations-political-vi...

Point out to me a single BLM protest where both:

• 6 people died

• BLM stormed a capitol building while the legislative body was in session

Re: NYT reporter falsely accuses tech investor of using a slur

#289
post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I also wanted to point out that there's a technical term for true information that causes harm, "malinformation." Wow, that is such an Orwellian thing to say. The definition you just gave could be used to justify censorship of any truthful information. Yes, this factual information is upsetting, but we need to let Facebook cover our eyes and decide how outraged we are allowed to be. Otherwise we might hurt ourselve…

> Malinformation as a concept is specifically that truthful information can be problematic and we need to be "protected" from it. I don't see that the second half of that is inherent to the concept of "malinformation". There are situations where unabashed, unfiltered truth can be damaging or problematic. Defining that concept with a term is not in any way attempting to solve that concept. It doesn't presume that some…

I don't see any benefit to having this terminology, other than as a pretext for censorship. Calling it "mal" information implies that truthful information can be bad. Calling it something more neutral like "unfiltered" or "unabashed" would be more accurate.

Re: NYT reporter falsely accuses tech investor of using a slur

#290
post #6

>the Times’ tech team quickly donned their hall-monitor goggles and Stasi notebooks to warn that the Bad People had migrated to Signal and Telegram. This week they asked: “Are Private Messaging Apps the Next Misinformation Hot Spot?” One reporter “confess[ed] that I am worried about Telegram. Other than private messaging, people love to use Telegram for group chats — up to 200,000 people can meet inside a Telegram ch…

Unreal.

If the so-called watchmen of the “MSM” even for a second tired to meet the standards in their own writing that they hold for others, they’d be crushed. This goes triple for the biased “journalist” in the OP.

It’s so gross to see someone like this snipe and cherry pick examples from the vast, vast media system, and then have otherwise smart people take the bait because thinking it’s some enlightened, contrarian position.

It’s just a way to sell ads to the “ackshyually...” crowd.

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