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I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

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Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#271

Post by ghaff »

quicklime wrote: post #263
lucifersam wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have this dilemma at the moment. My company has a management and non-management track. I feel like the company is pushing me up the levels and that all focus across engineering is on getting promoted to the next level. My problem is now that I've got to Staff level I feel like I'm a manager even though my manager insists I'm not. I hardly ever get to code, and my calendar is full of meetings. I spend a lot of time…

At the companies that I've seen that have a good IC track, including some of the FAANGs, the staff+ level engineers are measured by impact. There are many ways to have that impact, and that could be by architecture, design and influencing technical strategy, or it could be by churning out tons of code, or it could be by highly specialized domain knowledge. It's fairly normal for staff-level engineers to spend a lot o…

>the staff+ level engineers are measured by impact.

That's a good description. And the reality is that while, as you say, there are master engineers who can crank out great inventions largely autonomously, the vast bulk do so in large part by mentoring and guiding others. I know many distinguished engineers and SDEs who are ICs. But at least the ones I know spend most of their time communicating and working with others. Open source project maintainers often describe themselves as primarily editors.

Some are actually managers (which carry more formal administrative responsibilities) and some aren't. But almost none of them are largely working on their own because it's really hard (especially outside of a research context and even then) to have maximum impact that way.

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#272

Post by tails4e »

lucifersam wrote: post #238
geophile wrote: post #24

Good for you. I was in startups for 25 years, (except for a few years in an acquiring company), and I had this ongoing debate with myself and my bosses for many years: Should I stay on the technical side (developer, architect), or go into management? On one hand, I thought that I "should" go into management because ... that's what people do, right? On the other hand, I loathed management. Even as a team lead, meeting…

I have this dilemma at the moment. My company has a management and non-management track. I feel like the company is pushing me up the levels and that all focus across engineering is on getting promoted to the next level. My problem is now that I've got to Staff level I feel like I'm a manager even though my manager insists I'm not. I hardly ever get to code, and my calendar is full of meetings. I spend a lot of time…

This is exactly how I feel, except I also have technical responsibilities, meetings dominate my day. Some technical meetings sure, but a lot of status and syncs, and a lot of email. I'm lucky to get an hour a day between 9 and 5 to engineer. I've often fondly remembered when I had 3 meetings a week and the rest was just productive time and I could churn out code or work on workflow improvements, automation, etc.

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#273

Post by cercatrova »

ignoramous wrote: post #232
rebyn wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being a Distinguished Engineer is the highest there is for an engineer. He moved away from management and max'd out on the engineering track. https://college.lclark.edu/programs/entrepreneurship/firesid...

Yeah, and Amazon HR might be forced to create newer, higher rungs just for alv (and quite possibly a few others like James Hamilton and Eric Brandwine). The "self-demotion" is real though, especially since, according to the (much disputed) book, The Everything Store, alv declined Bezos' offer to lead AWS, and the job then of course was Andy Jassy's (who took over from Colin Bryar) which laid the foundation for him to…

He probably made the right choice for himself, I suspect the CEO role is something he'd want nothing to do with, as it's all meetings, no coding.

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#274

Post by johnfn »

TameAntelope wrote: post #101
CivBase wrote: post #70

Can someone explain to me why titles like Engineer, Architect, and Developer are perceived as having less value than titles like Manager or Director? Managing products requires a completely different skill set from managing people. Both skills are vital to the success of a business and neither are trivially developed or easily replaced. If you ask me, the "demotion" in this article is not going from Director of Desig…

When you make a decision as a manager or a director, the impact of that decision has a multiplicative force. As an individual contributor, the impact of your decisions may be broad, but however broad your individual impact is, your manager's impact on you is [broad * number of directs], so it's always "greater" (note: not better , just greater ). So in that sense, the "value" of a manager/director is "higher". IMO it…

> As an individual contributor, the impact of your decisions may be broad, but however broad your individual impact is, your manager's impact on you is [broad * number of directs], so it's always "greater" (note: not better, just greater).

But this is obviously false, right? If the IC is truly a spectacular IC, then it's likely that no matter which manager they're under, they will have large impact.

The impact of the manager isn't the entire impact of their directs, but rather the relative difference between the impact of their directs and the impact their directs would have under a different manager. Which is substantially less, and could easily be less than the impact of a particularly strong IC.

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#275

Post by ghaff »

jmd509 wrote: post #63

As a non-technical professional (yes we also peruse HN), I can't stress enough the value of having career conversations early and often with your manager. It's not just HR mumbo-jumbo. OP's story is just one example of a potential benefit. Most organizations actively try to support internal mobility (admittedly with varied success). Companies invest resources in hiring, training, and keeping you. Your manager, as a r…

And understanding what you're interested in. In spite of having an MBA, which has been at least somewhat useful (if only for being nearly a requirement for a somewhat different than today PM at the time), I've never had a great passion for managing people. And a semi-tech IC track has been fine for me through various iterations. And I've also done OK--at least enough--largely sticking with companies for many years. There are probably other paths that would have led to bigger paydays (or not) but I've been fine.

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#276

Post by carlisle_ »

kazinator wrote: post #255
carlisle_ wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody is going to care about how semantically correct you are given one of his anecdotes was him admitting he treats women differently because of their gender. Feel free to call that valid to appease your dictionary definition, however colloquial definitions matter just as much in casual conversation.

> admitting he treats women differently because of their gender OK, I see the misunderstanding. I'm not aware of a colloquial usage of "anecdote" which covers confessions of a behavior, let alone a habitual behavior. (By which I don't intend to deny that the usage is real; it's just not known to me.) An anecdote could certainly include an admission; anything can happen in personal stories. Still, even if your definit…

It's the definition of the word '[in]valid' I was referring to. I'd also say this is the same thing as when I said his anecdotes were not true. What I saw was somebody using biased and bigoted thought to justify their reasoning.

I think I understand your reasoning for not wanting to call human experience invalid. I don't think it applies here because of the informal context (casual conversation) and because the anecdote was used as evidence. He extends his own behavior (treating women differently) to others without any factual basis in his anecdote (since I do it other people do it too). That's entirely invalid.

It also goes without saying that people often tell bald faced lies in the form of anecdotes. These anecdotes are obviously false or invalid as well.

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#277

Post by ketzo »

100011_100001 wrote: post #71
seankimdesign wrote: post #61

I love this story. I can intensely relate as I too have made the pivot from being a UX professional to software engineering a few years back. Sure I hadn't achieved anything close to being the director of design for a known tech firm; My design career was just starting to flourish when I'd made the move. But so much of the sentiment regarding confidence and self-doubt were the exact emotions that I had experienced .…

I went from a Sr. Manager to Jr. Developer. The pay cut sucked. The first year working as a developer was rough. Everyone assumed that I knew a lot because of my age, but I was mostly a newbie. Fast forward 8 years later, I am a Lead Developer and making double what I made as a Sr. Manager. I am still learning, I am still behind compared to my peers. Technology feels like it's moving too fast. But in the end, the bes…

I think any developer who feels like they have a 100% handle on all the new tech in their field... isn't paying enough attention :D feeling like there's more to learn is a way of life!

Congrats on the successful career shift.

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#278

Post by ketzo »

epsilonclose wrote: post #235
jmd509 wrote: post #63

As a non-technical professional (yes we also peruse HN), I can't stress enough the value of having career conversations early and often with your manager. It's not just HR mumbo-jumbo. OP's story is just one example of a potential benefit. Most organizations actively try to support internal mobility (admittedly with varied success). Companies invest resources in hiring, training, and keeping you. Your manager, as a r…

I don't know. For a sufficiently large change, it isn't necessarily in your company's best interest to try to keep you happy. You have banked knowledge and skill in X. You have limited skill in Y but wish to learn. The loss of some fraction of X is always going to hurt the company more than your gain in Y will benefit them, so they are going to try to keep you doing as much of X as possible for as long as possible. I…

> it isn't necessarily in your company's best interest to try to keep you happy

This is true -- but your manager won't always act in your company's exact best interest either! I do think "management are human beings, too" is pretty important to remember.

> The loss of some fraction of X is always going to hurt the company more than your gain in Y will benefit them

I don't think you can assume this is always true. What if X is jQuery and Y is Typescript? Or X is oldLegacyCodebase and Y is newProjectInBurgeoningField?

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#279

Post by kristinamay »

nonamenoslogan wrote: post #250
kristinamay wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi! Blog post author here. I didn't keep my old salary, nope. I took a substantial pay cut in order to do this.

Thanks for your insight. I'm at a similar crossroads currently and leaning toward staying in my current role. Basically about 14 years ago, I left a Fortune 500 company where I was a Network Administrator for a decade to go to a University and took a large pay cut to become an IT Analyst. Primary reason was wanting to get another degree, cheaply. After 7 years as an Analyst, I was promoted to manager of the team. Aft…

If you know you don't like managing, then no amount of money (okay, unless it's comically large) will make you like it. You even said it yourself - money isn't your driving factor.

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#280

Post by AnimalMuppet »

munk-a wrote: post #211
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interviewing for my last two jobs, I told them very explicitly that my career goal was to never become a manager.

I don't think I've ever interviewed from the same angle but I have been clear with my managers that I want to avoid moving into any sort of people management. It hasn't been an issue and when you've marked yourself out as a long term developer you can get more momentum behind technical pushes that might have a long project lifetime since the company will be less concerned about putting a big weight in your hands - th…

Yeah, I didn't use the term, but I mainly meant "people management". Bluntly, people are not a core strength of mine...
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