I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer • Hacker News Board

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#251

Post by 100011_100001 » Mon, Feb 08, 2021, 9:52 PM UTC

jedberg wrote: post #225

100011_100001 wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is factually not true. Developers can make big mistakes to bring entire companies down with them. Of course it depends on the definition of "mistake". However I can claim that a single defect caused by a developer can cost the company money and downtime, if nothing else a bad user experience. Managers don't generate defects. Developers do. Not to mention that a lot of the times it's much harder to reverse an eng…

You sound like someone who has never been a manager or has no idea what a manager does. Yes, you're right that defects are made by developers. But you'd be hard pressed to find an example of a software defect that destroyed a company. Even if you as a DevOps engineer cause your company to be down for a day, it probably would have little effect on your company's bottom line. I was in charge of Reliability for Netflix.…

I was a Sr Manager for about 4 years, two different "teams", one IT based, one QA based. Regardless, perhaps we need to define the word "Manager", mainly because your example said:

> Creating entire new groups of engineers and then hiring them to solve specific problems of moving traffic between regions.

Albeit admirable, like heck yeah that was a great outcome, it's not a manager decision. Most likely it was a VP or Sr Director decision. Perhaps a manager brought it up as an idea. So if we are talking about Sr Director's+ then yes, their decisions can absolutely bring down a business. Granted I am not familiar with Netflix's org chart so perhaps it works differently, from some basic reading it looks like Netflix follows a decentralized command of sorts.

My beef with the original poster was the implication of risk. Both managers and devs have risk with their decisions. It's not just a manager thing. In the end, when Netflix went down where did the mistake come from? A manager or an architecture decision? Probably it was both.

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#252

Post by carlisle_ » Mon, Feb 08, 2021, 9:56 PM UTC

kazinator wrote: post #241

carlisle_ wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You want to argue that the guy espousing sexism through his anecdotal experiences has valid anecdotes?

Since everyone has valid anecdotes, and that person is a member of everyone, the inescapable logical conclusion is that, indeed, he has valid anecdotes. I reiterate that I'm using a standard for "valid" that is befitting of anecdotes, which is confined to the facts. It doesn't cover the cherry-picking of observations that are selected as the basis for anecdotes, or the means of drawing conclusions, or the appropriate…

Nobody is going to care about how semantically correct you are given one of his anecdotes was him admitting he treats women differently because of their gender. Feel free to call that valid to appease your dictionary definition, however colloquial definitions matter just as much in casual conversation.

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#253

Post by fma » Mon, Feb 08, 2021, 9:57 PM UTC

lucasmullens wrote: post #222

cldellow wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> demotion (n) - a reduction in rank or status But it is a demotion! I think perhaps we view that as a negative thing when it's done as a punishment, or due to factors outside one's control. But in this case, she chose it (indeed, worked for it!), so she must think it was worth it. Her rank is literally demoted. She went from being high on the job ladder ("Director") to low on the job ladder ("Associate"), reflecting…

If you're a manager at a McDonald's, and you switch to being a programmer, were you demoted then too? I think every time I've heard the word 'demoted' it was in the context of staying on the same ladder. It just doesn't seem like the right word choice, even if it is arguably correct.

The title wouldn't be as interested if it was "I followed my dreams to change my career a software developer"

I do not view career changes as a promotion or demotion. You're starting at neutral.

When I clicked the article I thought it would be about maybe a Senior Developer, Technical Manager or Architect going to developer...which...is kinda what happened to me (less meetings & responsibilities, more coding).

But alas the story had little relationship to what I expected.

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#254

Post by tcgv » Mon, Feb 08, 2021, 10:04 PM UTC

ignoramous wrote: post #89

Reminds me of a "self-demotion" that worked out well: That of a certain Allan Vermeulen [0] who, by some accounts, was the chief architect of Amazon S3 [1], and by all accounts, an engineer extraordinaire. Vermeulen managed the Platform Services group when he joined [2], and later moved to a CTO role with focus on the then very nascent Web Services initiative [3], but eventually "demoted" himself to an "AWS Engineer"…

Defines himself as a "techinical dude" in his LinkedIn profile xD

- https://www.linkedin.com/in/allan-vermeulen-58835b/

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#255

Post by kazinator » Mon, Feb 08, 2021, 10:08 PM UTC

carlisle_ wrote: post #252

kazinator wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since everyone has valid anecdotes, and that person is a member of everyone, the inescapable logical conclusion is that, indeed, he has valid anecdotes. I reiterate that I'm using a standard for "valid" that is befitting of anecdotes, which is confined to the facts. It doesn't cover the cherry-picking of observations that are selected as the basis for anecdotes, or the means of drawing conclusions, or the appropriate…

Nobody is going to care about how semantically correct you are given one of his anecdotes was him admitting he treats women differently because of their gender. Feel free to call that valid to appease your dictionary definition, however colloquial definitions matter just as much in casual conversation.

> admitting he treats women differently because of their gender

OK, I see the misunderstanding.

I'm not aware of a colloquial usage of "anecdote" which covers confessions of a behavior, let alone a habitual behavior. (By which I don't intend to deny that the usage is real; it's just not known to me.)

An anecdote could certainly include an admission; anything can happen in personal stories.

Still, even if your definition of "anecdote" extends to admissions, I don't see how you could then call it false.

If someone confesses that he treated specific women A, B and C differently, or else that he habitually does so, then the only way that can be false is that he's making it up.

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#256

Post by noelsusman » Mon, Feb 08, 2021, 10:14 PM UTC

smileysteve wrote: post #54

geophile wrote: post #24

Good for you. I was in startups for 25 years, (except for a few years in an acquiring company), and I had this ongoing debate with myself and my bosses for many years: Should I stay on the technical side (developer, architect), or go into management? On one hand, I thought that I "should" go into management because ... that's what people do, right? On the other hand, I loathed management. Even as a team lead, meeting…

> On the other hand, I loathed management. Even as a team lead, meetings made me literally sick to my stomach, I don't know that you should use this criteria as the sole deal breaker. Managers should be shielding teams from unproductive meetings and pushing for productivity (action items) from the meetings that happen - holding their peers to a degree of standards. Now, if you hate 1:1, org planning, and successful m…

The work of shielding my hypothetical team from useless meetings sounds just as miserable as the useless meetings themselves. Now that I think about it, my own boss shields us from these meetings primarily by taking the meeting himself.

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#257

Post by nadllik » Mon, Feb 08, 2021, 10:21 PM UTC

carlisle_ wrote: post #207

Geminidog wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Your complaints are entirely anecdotal, meanwhile it's very easy to point at empirical data showing how women are treated poorly. Show me the data for this specific case of horizontal movement in engineering organizations for women and you have an argument that can change my view. >If you actually want to call yourself a legitimate feminist you should spend more time listening and learning. It might make you actuall…

You wanna get educated go educate yourself. I'm frankly pretty disgusted by your posts and don't have the patience to educate somebody who is stubborn and unwilling to consider other perspectives.

How am I stubborn. I'm literally asking you to show me evidence. I am allowing you to present your perspective with evidence.

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#258

Post by nadllik » Mon, Feb 08, 2021, 10:22 PM UTC

dang wrote: post #218

skratlo wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is such a horrible misogynistic comment, it saddens me greatly this crap is on top, tells a tale about HN audience. Janitor? Charity? Hot female? Just listen to yourself, you're so full of hate.

We've banned the account. Obviously that was egregious vandalism, if not arson. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26069552 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26069593 You have to judge this sort of thing by the entire community response cycle, though. Indignation, provocation, trolling often gets heavily upvoted—but then the rest of the community reacts appropriately and flags it. Usually that will bring it to o…

that's not true. trolling does not get upvoted here. HN users are usually above the mob mentality. You're just defining it as trolling because you disagree with the upvotes. You are enforcing your own personal opinion here.

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#259

Post by amelius » Mon, Feb 08, 2021, 10:31 PM UTC

cldellow wrote: post #58

jbay808 wrote: post #6

Kind of frustrating to see this framed as a "demotion". But it's great to see someone starting over in a new career track that suits them better.

> demotion (n) - a reduction in rank or status But it is a demotion! I think perhaps we view that as a negative thing when it's done as a punishment, or due to factors outside one's control. But in this case, she chose it (indeed, worked for it!), so she must think it was worth it. Her rank is literally demoted. She went from being high on the job ladder ("Director") to low on the job ladder ("Associate"), reflecting…

> demotion (n) - a reduction in rank or status

Ok, it was a reduction in rank, but an increase in status (if you ask most software engineers) ;)

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#260

Post by nadllik » Mon, Feb 08, 2021, 10:32 PM UTC

dang wrote: post #216

Geminidog wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Referring to my job change as the company offering me charity is offensive and incorrect (I took a pay cut and worked hard to learn what I need to in order to be effective). It was not intended as an insult, so apologies. But I still stand by my statements because I believe them to be true. Other things that will lead to clearer views on this is your overall software skills relative to other people in the same posit…

We've banned this account for egregiously breaking the site guidelines. Please read https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26069552 and stop creating accounts to do hellish things on HN. Haranguing other users who show up here to discuss their work is one of the worst things anyone can possibly do here—and yes, that's what you've did: "If that's the case present your data!" — that you were not hired because of your sex…

>Haranguing other users who show up here to discuss there work is one of the worst things anyone can possibly do here—and yes, that's what you've did: "If that's the case present your data!" — that you were not hired because of your sex and your looks? What the fuck.

No. She said she knows of many cases where men made the exact same horizontal moves in her organization. She said she HAS data. I am simply asking her to present it. Your attitude here is one that is too quick to judge.

>We want authors show up on HN to discuss their writings. The choice between having that vs. having trolls who personally attack them is not a difficult one.

Except I'm not trolling. I am presenting a legitimate view point that is not a personal attack. Her case is very abnormal and I am addressing the abnormality, which is very very reasonable.

You don't hear of many cases where a horizontal shift like this is possible. So it is not an attack. It don't know her personally and I have no reason to attack her. Your statement is categorically incorrect.

I also think your dismissing the intelligence and judgement of your users. This post had a quite high number of upvotes and users of HN are not your classic reddit mob.

The votes are evidence that users of this site don't share your opinion so you used your own biased view points to override my view point and dismissed the majority who agreed with me. Let's be real the people who flagged me are just a vocal minority.

You are moderating based off of your own personal biases and I wish you would just moderate the flame war instead of censoring the topic.

I'm using another account here which you can ban as well (I'll just get another one). I'll be more mindful to follow your guidelines in the future including the arbitrary guideline you made up here on the fly to support your personal biases. I like this site but a highly disagree with your moderation practices.