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Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA testing kit

theregister.com

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Re: Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA testing kit

#381

Post by alchemism »

hluska wrote: post #367
Spivak wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like how this is considered a bad thing. Like we can’t let this guy point out that he’s being convicted by an unauditable black box that suddenly isn’t worth using if it has to stand up to scrutiny because then everyone would want to. The horror. Like I’m actually kinda shocked this is the reality. I would have assumed that DNA evidence would have some blessed methodologies and tools/algorithms, with a strict defin…

This is one of these scary areas where reality matches my teenaged experiences playing Shadowrun. I used to hope that the brutal dystopia we played through was just fun. Now I’m seeing that the present needs a word even more brutal than dystopia. :(

Kafkatopia

Re: Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA testing kit

#382

Post by bargl »

jjeaff wrote: post #361
bargl wrote: post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without jumping on the conspiracy bandwagon, I'd also like to see this applied to voting software. I know it's a hot topic, and I'm honestly not trying to get political. Software that is critical to our fundamental human rights, and is being used by our government should be open source, or at least audited by a group of people who sign Non-competes/NDA and can't go work for competitors, or with some other mechanism t…

I agree, for my own piece of mind. But I am also certain that it would have made no difference in our current predicament with a third of the country thinking the election was stolen. It has been shown to us time and time again that no actual evidence is required to get people to believe what they want to believe. And the more technical the evidence (i.e. source code), the less helpful.

>But I am also certain that it would have made no difference in our current predicament with a third of the country thinking the election was stolen.

It would have changed some peoples minds I don't know if the change would have been a few thousand or 10s of millions. I can't say if it would have a dent in the 1/3 of people or not. I can't predict that. It would have helped me with my own peace of mind. And frank I think it's overall the right thing for us to do.

>And the more technical the evidence (i.e. source code), the less helpful.

Disinformation is powerful, I'm not suggesting this alone would fix that. I disagree that more technical evidence is harmful. Global warming is benefiting from transparency and evidence. It takes generations to change political will not years. The evidence there has shifted our whole economy, just maybe not fast enough.

There will always, always be deniers. Global warming, flat earth, vaccinations, etc. Evidence _helps_ battle deniers in these areas, but it takes generations for these ideas to become mainstream and the deniers to go from 99% of people to 2% of people.

Also, 2% of people think the earth is flat? Holy crap. https://www.sciencealert.com/one-third-millennials-believe-f...

Re: Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA testing kit

#383

Post by WaitWaitWha »

steerablesafe wrote: post #30

Are forensic labs often get blind tested? If there is a bias for guilty cases then it should turn out in those blind tests. Source code is a red herring here, there should be independent evaluations of forensic laboratories/methodologies/etc... regardless of software source code availability. Maybe these checks are already in place, I genuinely don't know.

Not in my experience. Most labs of various types supposed to get certification, but these certifications primarily about chain of custody, operation protocols, record keeping, and such. It has little to do with the veracity of their conclusions.

Re: Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA testing kit

#384

Post by gowld »

vkou wrote: post #351
Aachen wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If it would take 8.5 yrs to review, it's probably god awful, and should never ever ever be used to convict someone of such a crime. It's not like you review all scientific evidence and re-do the experiments that lead up to the discovery of in the first place. Validating all that would also take years and much of it can be established as generally accepted by all parties. Similarly, there will be some trust involved…

> It's not like you review all scientific evidence and re-do the experiments that lead up to the discovery of in the first place. Validating all that would also take years and much of it can be established as generally accepted by all parties. Similarly, there will be some trust involved with this source code as well There are a few important differences between a generally accepted method, and some Matlab black-box…

In USA, accurate to 1 in a million means you can convict 300 innocent people for every guilty one.

Bad stats, especially around DNA, has convicted many innocent people.

BTW, law and Order did an episode on bad DNA science convicting someone.

Re: Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA testing kit

#385

Post by WaitWaitWha »

Falling3 wrote: post #297
WaitWaitWha wrote: post #288

The tone of this thread is leaning to "forensics evil, government lackeys out to get the little guy". In the USA, all sides can call and rely on their own forensics. There is no government mandated & approved single-source-of-truth (with some minor exceptions). > Forensic labs and companies are expert witnesses with black box processes and the incentive to protect the authority of their profession. This statement is…

> In the USA, all sides can call and rely on their own forensics. ... to the extent their financial resources allow.

I think your way of writing it is the the best expressed.

Re: Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA testing kit

#386

Post by vmception »

hutzlibu wrote: post #362
cyberlurker wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, that middle zone (that most of us probably live in) is terrifying. And it’s why we get conned into so many different types of insurance. “One disaster and all that progress is gone.”

"Yes, that middle zone (that most of us probably live in) is terrifying" More terrifying than the bottom where you got nothing to loose? I doubt it. Otherwise, why be afraid of it?

I would say just because of the energy and sacrifices used

At the bottom you don't have to pretend that the circumstances will improve, and there is some freedom associated with some approaches to that. Careers don't need to have continuity, I know many people in hospitality and service industry whose vacation policy is saving and quitting one restuarant, travelling, and getting another job at a different restuarant when they get back. Sure other approaches have lots of energy used on finding food and shelter that day, and service and hospitality work is not necessarily at the bottom, my post isn't about those approaches and dilemmas.

People in the distinct category of "professional" careers, not my term, don't feel like they have that freedom to have any timegaps and are resigned to earning small periods of time off, and often times that is true.

Re: Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA testing kit

#387

Post by edgyquant »

kenjackson wrote: post #336
edgyquant wrote: post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is this persons life we’re talking about. No amount of time is too much and it isn’t hurting anyone to let him do a code review.

No. You give a reasonable amount of time. What if he asked for 100 years?

As long as he’s actually reading the code, and still in jail unable to hurt anyone, let him have it. He’ll likely pass before that time is reached and if he’s just wasting time he’ll get bored having to spend hours a day looking at code that he doesn’t care to look at. I get what you’re saying but my point is him wasting time reading code isn’t hurting anyone and is a better use of an inmates time than sitting around.

Re: Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA testing kit

#388

Post by gowld »

unishark wrote: post #378
phire wrote: post #93

> The co-founder of the company, Mark Perlin, is said to have argued against source code analysis by claiming that the program, consisting of 170,000 lines of MATLAB code, is so dense it would take eight and a half years to review at a rate of ten lines an hour. First, the defence doesn't necessarily have to evaluate all 170,000 lines. They just need to find one buggy line which could potentially overturn the result.…

A lot of bashing over a vague third-hand quote without a source. In the very next paragraph they say: > The company offered the defense access under tightly controlled conditions outlined in a non-disclosure agreement, which included accepting a $1m liability fine in the event code details leaked. But the defense team objected to the conditions, which they argued would hinder their evaluation and would deter any expe…

There is no legitimate need for IP protection against destroying innocent lives.

Re: Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA testing kit

#389

Post by WaitWaitWha »

hirundo wrote: post #55

If an accused person has the right to see the source code that produced evidence against them, is it a violation of their rights for the source code to be obfuscated, or even just so spaghettified that not even an expert can understand it? I kinda think that should be a violation. But deciding whether a particular piece of code is so bad is so subjective that I'm not sure on how you'd make a legal standard out of it.…

During discovery, the opposing lawyer can raise an alarm to the court of such obfuscation. There have been many cases where such behavior cost cases going against the party.
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