Live data from Hacker News

Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA testing kit

theregister.com

21–30 of 520 posts

Re: Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA testing kit

#21
post #7

Why don't they just redo the analysis with a few other software packages?

That would help with variance, but not with bias.

Business incentives presumably reward all such companies for helping the police get convictions, so it doesn't seem a far-fetched concern.

Re: Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA testing kit

#22
post #7

Why don't they just redo the analysis with a few other software packages?

The defendant has a right to “confront” their accuser. So when an algorithm is the one doing the accusing it seems only fair that the defendant should be able to understand how and why the algorithm arrived at that conclusion. Running the analysis through every software package available wouldn’t satisfy the defendant’s 6th amendment rights.

Re: Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA testing kit

#24

Wouldn't this set a precedent to eventually force any forensic software to become open source?

It's unfathomable that the state can introduce evidence of any variety that isn't open source.

Secret policing and secrecy in prosecution have no place in decent society.

Re: Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA testing kit

#25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

and surprisingly all of the code is of equal importance so you really need to review each line sequentially! Instead of finding stuff that you think is most likely to relate to what you're trying to figure out and debug from there. Wow I would like to see this marvel of engineering myself!

Kind of makes me wonder: if the argument is that the code is too complex to review and understand, does that mean the company is not doing code reviews themselves?

this has actually only happened to me a couple times but it has happened - someone tells me Bryan, go look at the code X did in Y, figure out if we refactor. X would then tell me - that code is really complicated is full of algorithms! I go and look at the code realize that for what it is trying to do can be cut down from 10 pages of printed code to less than 1 and it was incredibly simple what actually needed to be done.

In short when someone tells me the stuff is too complicated because too clever and advanced I tend to disbelieve them.

that said I have of course written my too complicated stuff lots of times, but if asked I don't say it was because I'm clever.

names anonymized so as to not accidentally hurt anyone's feelings.

on edit: actually one time the code was clever but not especially difficult, they just used the algorithms line because they didn't want anyone messing with their stuff.

Re: Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA testing kit

#28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the code was developed in less than 8.5 years, it seems like the answer must be yes based on their previous claims.

Well I mean if something requires 8 man years of work you can do it in a year with 8 people. Not always, but usually.

On the contrary, such linear scaling would be quite exceptional. I'm speaking from experience but you don't need to trust me; I invite you read any book on software engineering management, starting from The Mythical Man-Month by Brooks.

Re: Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA testing kit

#29

It's an important development. Forensic labs and companies are expert witnesses with black box processes and the incentive to protect the authority of their profession. They are as likely to lie as any other witness. Perhaps even moreso. "Those arguing on behalf of the defense cited past problems with other genetic testing software such as STRmix and FST (Forensic Statistical Tool). Defense expert witnesses Mats Heim…

> Forensic labs and companies are expert witnesses with black box processes and the incentive to protect the authority of their profession. I imagine they're also incentivised to favour a result indicating guilt.

Why? The risk to their reputation & livelihood for a false positive should temper that.

Re: Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA testing kit

#30
Are forensic labs often get blind tested? If there is a bias for guilty cases then it should turn out in those blind tests. Source code is a red herring here, there should be independent evaluations of forensic laboratories/methodologies/etc... regardless of software source code availability. Maybe these checks are already in place, I genuinely don't know.
Post reply on HN